SydLexia.com - The Forums :: View topic - Have major developers lost their chance with the Wii?

Posted: Aug 19 2008 03:02 am

Syd Lexia wrote:

JEW wrote:

so if averave joe gamer doesn't own a wii, he will still buy wii games. is that what you're telling me?

how does that make sense?

What in the fuck are you talking about?

Wii: 29.62 million units sold
XBox 360: 19.01 million units sold
PS3: 14.41 million units sold

So please, explain to me again the part where "Average Joe Gamer" is more likely to own a PS3 than a Wii.

The Wii has a ton more casual and kiddie appeal, so it's more likely that a whining child's parents or a fat old lady will buy one.

Posted: Aug 19 2008 09:17 am

JEW wrote:

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

I got a Wii like 2 months ago, and I had almost no trouble finding one. Jew, if you work at Gamestop, part of the problem may be that Gamestop sucks total dick. Seriously. I don't think I've ever had a good experience at one. It's the only store that's actually designed to be harder to walk through than Hot Topic. I called up the nearest Target when I was looking for one, and the guy said "Yeah, we have like 50 of them. Come buy like 7." I thought it was a joke, so I had my girlfriend call as well, and she got the same answer from a different person. I drove by, and there they were, just a mountain of Wii's.

Oh, you mention how many people come in frantically looking for Wii's. How many people come in looking for the other systems? If the Wii has sold more than twice as much as the PS3 and over 30% more than the 360 (In significantly less time being available) and people still come in desperately trying to find Wii's, which system do you think it makes sense to develop for? I'd definitely sell the one that's sold the most systems despite being the youngest and is still selling out everywhere.

I work at sams. we sell quite a few 360 and DS systems without a problem.

and it doesn't matter what the reason for not being able to have the system is (I know lots of people looking for it and it selling out as soon as we get it is a good thing. a sure sign of high demand, I won't deny) the fact is that people still can't get the system. Maybe this isn't the problem everywhere, but from what I see, it's a problem in quite a few places.

I'm sure it still is a problem in some places and while I did find a Wii the first day I looked for one, I did make a couple dozen phone calls to stores before finding one, so I know it's not a universal abundance. Even so, wouldn't it make more sense at this point to develop for the system that sold the most units in the shortest time span, and after being out for a couple years STILL has demand higher than production?

Posted: Aug 19 2008 09:29 am

JEW wrote:

also, where are you getting these numbers from? and are these sales altogether or sales for this year? Remember that the 360 has been out longer than the wii, so sales might be declining this year because most of the people that wanted the system already got it. maybe your idea of selling games for the wii first will work later on, when the demand for the system is satisfied, but to do that right now would be corporate suicide.

These are overall sales, I pulled them off Wikipeda. The numbers are footnoted from various business magazines, and I believe they're total sales through June 2008. As for decline, I think we are going to see a spike in 360 sales. It's currently the cheapest system that's readily available and a price drop is coming in September. I see the 360 winning the currentgen war, which arguably, despite sales numbers, it already is, and I see PS3 winning the nextgen war. I see Sony perhaps releasing a PS3+ or something, but I don't forsee a PS4 until at least 2015. Speaking of which...

If Blu-Ray is the future, where does that leave Nintendo and Microsoft? Blu-Ray is Sony's proprietary technology, so the other two companies can't use it without paying Sony.

As for Wii availability, I don't think there's a true shortage to the extent there was before, but I think certain retailers are giving Nintendo incentives to send shipments their way. The Targets are here seem to get Wiis in a lot more consistently than other retailers. Also, Comcast here currently has a deal where if you sign up for a cable package with them, they give you a Wii.

Posted: Aug 19 2008 03:35 pm

I can see Microsoft using HDDVD just for games.

Posted: Aug 19 2008 09:59 pm

Microsoft can use HDDVD for their games if they deem it necessary, and Nintendo can create their own thing if they want. Blu-Ray isn't really a technology, more of a coding standard; the technology is really the same as any other disc, but with a blue laser. Eventually, everyone will get along anyway.

Example: keyboards/synthesizers used to be incompatible with each other. The technology was basically the same for all of them, but there was no standard for all the different channels, so if you prepared a song on a Sony synthesizer and then performed it on a Yamaha or something, it would sound completely different. Finally everyone realized that was fucking gay, so they got together and created MIDI.

Title: Titlating Joined: Dec 17 2007 Posts: 5042

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

Microsoft can use HDDVD for their games if they deem it necessary, and Nintendo can create their own thing if they want. Blu-Ray isn't really a technology, more of a coding standard; the technology is really the same as any other disc, but with a blue laser. Eventually, everyone will get along anyway.

Example: keyboards/synthesizers used to be incompatible with each other. The technology was basically the same for all of them, but there was no standard for all the different channels, so if you prepared a song on a Sony synthesizer and then performed it on a Yamaha or something, it would sound completely different. Finally everyone realized that was fucking gay, so they got together and created MIDI.

Yes that. Both nintendo and microsoft say they want a new console out by 2010 and by then some sort of universal player will be created.

Posted: Aug 19 2008 11:05 pm

JEW wrote:

then take some older game off the shelf that's already run it's course and have a few guys rework it on the side to work on that other system so that I could suck a few more dollars out of it. it makes perfect sense from a business standpoint.

Honestly, I think I'd kinda like to see that happen with Soul Calibur IV in a year or two. If they rebuilt the game from the ground, they could make it much better. For instance:

1. Cut Story Mode. It's retarded and half-assed. Five fucking stages? Come on now. Cut it, and integrate the endings and openings into Arcade Mode. Bring back Destined Battles in arcade mode, too. Integrate the final battles from Story Mode too. Some people will fight Algol last, others will fight Siegfried or Nightmare.
2. Cut the CAF, unless the Wii solves its storage issues. If the CAF is cut, keep customizable outfits for the core characters.
3. Cut the bonus characters, if space is needed. They're basically just CAF examples and none of them are compelling.
4. Cut the Tower of Lost Souls. It's completely lame.
5. Bring back Mission Mode. That was one of the best features of SC and SC2.
6. Bring back Edge Master.
7. Take The Apprentice out of Arcade Mode. Yoda can fight him as a destined battle, but the SW characters shouldn't appear in the basic Arcade Mode outside of that. They can appear in Special Arcade Mode though.
8. Add in some of the DLC equipment from the other games as basic content. Gotta give people incentive.
9. Include all three SW characters, none are DLC. Maybe a bonus one. Three lightsabers is more than enough, so I nominate Chewbacca.
10. Make it slightly harder to unlock characters. You start with 20,000 gold for some reason, and the locked characters only cost 4000 apiece? That's moronic. You should start with no gold, and extra characters should cost at least 15,000 gold.

Joined: Aug 13 2008 Location: Watertown, NY Posts: 131

Let's not let Nintendo totally off the hook here either. Face it, they had fuck all prepared for the system's launch. Twilight Princess was basically a giant "fuck you" for both loyal Gamecube owners and potential Wii buyers hoping for something new and exciting on the system. Brawl, Prime 3, Galaxy, and Kart all came just about a year later. What did we have in the meantime? A bunch of GC holdovers like Zelda, Super Paper Mario, Fire Emblem, etc. It's pretty bad when the only exclusive, ground-up games you can come up with for YOUR OWN FUCKING SYSTEM LAUNCH are Excite Truck and Wii Sports.

What the hell happened to Disaster: Day of Crisis and Project H.A.M.M.E.R.? Unceremoniously dumped to make way for bullshit like Wii Fit and Animal Crossing. What happened to Nintendo's promise to actively seek good 3rd party support? What happened to their promise to quit basically ignoring the adult video gaming audience?

Don't get me wrong, I love Nintendo. I'm an absolute fanboy of theirs all the way. However, they've decided to build a product around selling games to people who don't play games. Will these people be around for the next console? Maybe, but you can hardly blame Capcom, Konami et al. for dancing with the ones that brung 'em. The people who've invested in PS3s, 360s, or (as in my case) all three systems are the ones you can count on to be buying games 5 years from now when your next system comes out.

Posted: Aug 20 2008 12:03 am

Syd Lexia wrote:

If Blu-Ray is the future, where does that leave Nintendo and Microsoft? Blu-Ray is Sony's proprietary technology, so the other two companies can't use it without paying Sony.

If all of the other companies would have to pigeonhole all of their software through the Blu-Ray medium then that would be a dark day indeed. I'm sure though that contemporary technologies won't allow Blu-Ray-level technology to monopolize the market... (I hope)

Posted: Aug 20 2008 12:38 am

it took me a month and a half to find a fucking wii. i would call several different places every couple of days and they would get mad cause i called so often.

anyhow, 1up.com always releases NPD numbers for the top console sales of the month. i just cant find the link right now

2010 SLF Tag Champ Joined: Jun 07 2006 Posts: 12294

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with a lot of this.

Quote:

1. Cut Story Mode. It's retarded and half-assed. Five fucking stages? Come on now. Cut it, and integrate the endings and openings into Arcade Mode. Bring back Destined Battles in arcade mode, too. Integrate the final battles from Story Mode too. Some people will fight Algol last, others will fight Siegfried or Nightmare.

yeah this sounds okay.

Quote:

2. Cut the CAF, unless the Wii solves its storage issues. If the CAF is cut, keep customizable outfits for the core characters.

they might as well jsut cut the entire customization feature and bring back the weapon select and jsut give each character a bunch of extra costumes.

Quote:

3. Cut the bonus characters, if space is needed. They're basically just CAF examples and none of them are compelling.

I don't agree with this. The bonus characters are actually part of the Soul Calibur mythos (not the guest characters, jsut the bonus characters). I'm just mad they didn't get their own movesets though.

Quote:

4. Cut the Tower of Lost Souls. It's completely lame.
5. Bring back Mission Mode. That was one of the best features of SC and SC2.
10. Make it slightly harder to unlock characters. You start with 20,000 gold for some reason, and the locked characters only cost 4000 apiece? That's moronic. You should start with no gold, and extra characters should cost at least 15,000 gold.
8. Add in some of the DLC equipment from the other games as basic content. Gotta give people incentive.

tower of lost souls is fantastic. although removing the CAS would make it kind of useless. I think it should be altered. it should be more like mission mode, but not scrapped altogether. maybe instad of unlocking CAS parts, you can do the tasts to unlock the stages and characters instead of buying them.

Quote:

6. Bring back Edge Master.

Yes.

Quote:

7. Take The Apprentice out of Arcade Mode. Yoda can fight him as a destined battle, but the SW characters shouldn't appear in the basic Arcade Mode outside of that. They can appear in Special Arcade Mode though.

alright.

Quote:

9. Include all three SW characters, none are DLC. Maybe a bonus one. Three lightsabers is more than enough, so I nominate Chewbacca.

I think three lightsabers is a fine number for a weapons fighter. they should include darth maul as teh wii exclusive.

Joined: Aug 05 2008 Location: CA Posts: 867

Quote:

If Blu-Ray is the future, where does that leave Nintendo and Microsoft? Blu-Ray is Sony's proprietary technology, so the other two companies can't use it without paying Sony.

Nintendo is looking into next gen optical media already. We get storage media mags in the mail at my work. At lunch I read them if I am really bored. There was an article about the following in one of them.

Copy pasta from the wiki:

In February 2008, InPhase Technologies was granted a joint patent with video game company Nintendo for a flexure-based scanner for angle-based multiplexing in a holographic storage system.

InPhase Technologies currently holds the record for "highest commercial data storage" by achieving 515 Gbit per square inch. of media. Most recently the company broke the 1 terabyte benchmark.

Future models are promised to reach 120 MB/s with capacities of 1.6 TB[3]

Posted: Aug 20 2008 06:18 am

JEW wrote:

I don't agree with this. The bonus characters are actually part of the Soul Calibur mythos (not the guest characters, jsut the bonus characters). I'm just mad they didn't get their own movesets though.

I think the moveset thing is what I really don't like. And the fact that they're readily selectable and other skins aren't. I mean, how come I can play as them and not Auguste, Raph's wolf-masked manservant? Also, I really really dislike Angol Fear. She looks even more unnatural than Cassandra and Talim with her giant ass eyes. That chick with the double swords is fairly cool though.

Posted: Aug 20 2008 08:50 am

Angol Fear is creepy because she's a completely different art style than every other character.

Posted: Aug 20 2008 09:13 am

Yeah, she's like Link squared.

Joined: Jun 10 2008 Posts: 172

ok, so here are my feelings on this. I like the wii alot, its great for hanging out with people and playing a game. Ultimately though, for me personally, it just didn't have the titles for me to validate keeping a system. I'm not a huge fan of puzzle games and I've sadly gotten past the point of alot of cutsey graphics. I respect those games because 10 out of 10 of the games from nintendo are well designed, good games but thats just not my thing. I like RPG's, I love good graphics (and I don't masterbate to them, thank you very much) and gritty new things because it makes me feel involved in the story and it gives it a sense of realism. There are people out there who aren't looking for that in a game, some of the people on this website are like that (Dr. Jeebus). heck there are some people on this site who could care less about stories (again, Dr. Jeebus) because thats not what they are there for, they are in love with the mechanic not the immersion. if you look at games that are released on the 360 and the Wii its pretty obvious there is (for the most part) a deep design schism between the two systems in terms of this argument between "Mechanism and Immersion." I'm talking about "for the most part" so don't even think of flamming me there are obviously exceptions on both sides but I'm talking about a general design philosophy for each system that is the primary attraction to there respective audience. Nintendo has found an untapped new audience for casual gaming and since there are way more people that the whole idea of casual gaming appeals to that is reflected in their sales numbers. Mjor developers never lost their chance with Wii, who's to say that the audience is even there for third party titles like the ones you see on 360? In the past Nintendo's fans have notoriously turned up there nose at 3rd party games, they have simply not sold well on their systems. The control nunchuck is also a barrier for developers of more traditional games. it understandably doesn't seem like such a great idea to make a game for a system for which the consumer has to buy a classic controller in addition to the game just to play it the way it was designed.

So, inconclusion, this whole issue of Nintendo getting 3rd party development is a little irrelevant. If those are the kind of games you are after Nintendo has made it fairly clear (along with their hardcore fanbase) that those are not the games or the audience they want to appeal to. Nintendo is all about the benjamins and the benajmins for them are in a cheap system that lots and lots of non gamers have bought.

Posted: Aug 20 2008 08:49 pm

APLETHORAOFPINATAS wrote:

Nintendo has found an untapped new audience for casual gaming and since there are way more people that the whole idea of casual gaming appeals to that is reflected in their sales numbers.

Nintendo's stated strategy was three tiered:
1. Bring new gamers into the market
2. Keep longterm Nintendo fans onboard
3. Win back gamers from other systems

Quote:

Major developers never lost their chance with Wii, who's to say that the audience is even there for third party titles like the ones you see on 360? In the past Nintendo's fans have notoriously turned up there nose at 3rd party games, they have simply not sold well on their systems.

Are you high? Third party titles were the heart and soul of the NES and SNES. Without the support of Konami, Capcom, and Square, Nintendo wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful as it was during those years. In particular, the SNES benefitted from better third party support than the Genesis, allowing it to eventually overcome a significant disadvantage against the Genesis in America in the 16-bit console war. The N64 lost a lot of third party support to Sony due to the cheaper production costs of CDs, as well as Nintendo's delayed entry into the nextgen market at that time. But even in N64/GCN era, third party games did well. Castlevania 64 was largely mediocre, but it did really well because N64 owners were desperate for something to play. And let's not forget Bomberman 64 and the THQ/AKI wrestling games, which were must-owns for all N64 owners. Meanwhile, Sega did very well on the Gamecube, as did Capcom.

Quote:

The control nunchuck is also a barrier for developers of more traditional games. it understandably doesn't seem like such a great idea to make a game for a system for which the consumer has to buy a classic controller in addition to the game just to play it the way it was designed.

The remote/nunchuk combination can be used in more traditional ways that don't involve waggling. For the most part, Mario Galaxy did this. And if the success of Guitar Hero has taught us anything, it's that extra controllers are par for the course. The serious Wii gamers have Classic Controllers, not to mention GCN controllers left over from their GCN days.

Quote:

this whole issue of Nintendo getting 3rd party development is a little irrelevant. If those are the kind of games you are after Nintendo has made it fairly clear (along with their hardcore fanbase) that those are not the games or the audience they want to appeal to.

Nintendo's hardcore fanbase *does* want these games. Its wider consumer base might not though.

2010 SLF Tag Champ Joined: Jun 07 2006 Posts: 12294

Syd Lexia wrote:

JEW wrote:

I don't agree with this. The bonus characters are actually part of the Soul Calibur mythos (not the guest characters, jsut the bonus characters). I'm just mad they didn't get their own movesets though.

I think the moveset thing is what I really don't like. And the fact that they're readily selectable and other skins aren't. I mean, how come I can play as them and not Auguste, Raph's wolf-masked manservant? Also, I really really dislike Angol Fear. She looks even more unnatural than Cassandra and Talim with her giant ass eyes. That chick with the double swords is fairly cool though.

you only like double sword whore because her ass is hanging out.

I think talim and cassandra look fine. I really like cassandra's design actually. especially the fact that her tits aren't enormous. I liked her better in 2 though where she wore leggings. I liked how she wasn't a panty shot sex appeal kinda girl. the fact taht she stabs people in the collarbone and then gives them a tornado DDT helps too.

I do agree about ONLY being able to play as the guest people being stupid, but all the parts are unlockable in CAS to make the other dudes at least.

I'd totally be all for the exclusion of those guest guys (because honestly they look like goddamn anime characters) but namco had to go and add them into the story, and not some lame "a magic portal opened and so and so stepped through" kinda thing. if you read the chain of souls, they're pretty solidly rooted in the mythos.

2010 SLF Tag Champ Joined: Jun 07 2006 Posts: 12294

Char Aznable wrote:

Angol Fear is creepy because she's a completely different art style than every other character.

I don't like her because she doesn't really fit into the mythos like the rest of the characters either.

Quote:

Angol Fear

A character in Soulcalibur IV designed by Mine Yoshizaki.[6]

Angol Mois's cousin, she is a 14,800 year old dark skinned, white haired woman who has many pointy accents on her clothes. She wields a multicolored, cross-shaped spear with a round, black moon shaped weight at the end called a Lucifer Spear. Her fighting style and Critical Finisher are based on Seong Mi-na. Her birth date is beyond reckoning of Earth's calendar.

who's angol mois?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angol_Mois

what's seargant frog?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgt._Frog

Mine Yoshiwhatever fails.

Posted: Aug 21 2008 04:04 am

So basically Algol Fear is the current gen version of Gon being in Tekken 3 for the PS1?

Posted: Aug 21 2008 05:54 am

They should have made Kalas a guest character.

I'm still betting on Pac-Man to eventually appear in Tekken.

Posted: Aug 21 2008 08:03 am

APLETHORAOFPINATAS wrote:

Major developers never lost their chance with Wii, who's to say that the audience is even there for third party titles like the ones you see on 360? In the past Nintendo's fans have notoriously turned up there nose at 3rd party games, they have simply not sold well on their systems.

I kinda have to echo what Syd said here and disagree with this. Nintendo lost a lot of its 3rd party support with the N64 when the continued using cartridges (and when Square stole their money to go make FF7 for someone else).
As for the whole mechanics vs immersion thing or whatever, yeah, I hate long cut scenes in video games. I'm not against immersive games, and I love things like Eternal Darkness and Resident Evil that are immersive because of the style of gameplay. I can't stand role playing games that are more about story and cut scenes than actual game play. I watch a lot of movies as it is; if I wanted to watch a movie I would, but that's not why I play video games. I play games because they are fun and challenging, and when you win they're rewarding. Viewtiful Joe had like the goofiest storyline ever, but the cut scenes were short so I watched them, and the gameplay was incredible, so it was game of the year despite have a total lack of amazing story.

Joined: Jun 10 2008 Posts: 172

I'm am not high at all, you live in some self delusional dream world where something about the NES besides the IP matters. You do realize that the NES SNES days were a veritable coon's age ago? They are completely irrelevant. NES was pretty much the only game in town till Sega Genesis so of course they had lots of 3rd party titles.

And yes your right, "serious" Wii'ers have classic controllers but thats the exact reason that my point holds up. There are relativly few serious gamers who have a Wii, its a casual system. and there are even FEWER people who have gamecube controllers. You're looking at this from the standpoint of a total nintendo fanboy and while yea, fanboys have bought the system, you are not indicative of Nintendo's average Wii owner. So unless every fanboy is going to buy 3 Wii's and 3 copies of each game its a risk for developers to develop games for a system beyond "Captain amazatron's craptastic bubble popping extravaganza" which they develop and produce for about 5 bucks.

And yes the nunchuk "can" be used in more traditional ways but its definatly not the optimal way to use it, otherwise they wouldn't have felt the need to even sell a classic controller. There are major limitations to what you can do in this regard with the nunchuk. There is no comfortable way you could play Soul Caliber on a nunchuk in a traditional way.

Posted: Aug 21 2008 09:52 am

APLETHORAOFPINATAS wrote:

I'm am not high at all, you live in some self delusional dream world where something about the NES besides the IP matters. You do realize that the NES SNES days were a veritable coon's age ago? They are completely irrelevant. NES was pretty much the only game in town till Sega Genesis so of course they had lots of 3rd party games

And yes the nunchuk "can" be used in more traditional ways but its definatly not the optimal way to use it, otherwise they wouldn't have felt the need to even sell a classic controller. There are major limitations to what you can do in this regard with the nunchuk. There is no comfortable way you could play Soul Caliber on a nunchuk in a traditional way.

The Nintendo was never the only game in town, and rarely did they have the best hardware town, if ever. But they had the market share, and that forced developers to play ball.

As for controllers, there is no optimal way to use the Wii controllers; they're all about versatility. The Wii is also all about accessorizing. New plastic shells for every game!!!

Joined: Jun 10 2008 Posts: 172

I'll pretend you didn't mention the accessorizing thing.

Market share = only game in town, they had such a monopoly they could force 3rd party developers to play game.

It wasn't called playing video games, it was called playing Nintendo.

and you can't deny that it is much MUCH more comfortable to use the wand and hold it like a tv remote than to hold it sideways. It doesn't do that well at all.