SydLexia.com - The Forums :: View topic - Creationism and Evolution: Opposing views or not

Posted: Apr 15 2008 05:22 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

Douche McCallister wrote:

When was GOD's starting point, when was the universe's? That really messed my head up.

The causation theory of God states that our universe is guided by principles of cause and effect. Everything that happens occurs for a reason. But there has to be a starting point. If we believe that the universe was created by a Big Bang as many scientists believe, we still have no definite answer as to what caused it. There has to be uncaused cause. This uncaused cause is God. It may not be the Christian God. It may not even be sentient. But is God in the simplest sense of the word, the Creator.

True but what caused God? It's a never ending line. I perfer to go with Family Guys traditional view of creation.

Posted: Apr 15 2008 05:37 pm

I believe I answered that. God is the uncaused cause.

That, or there are an interdeterminable number of parallel universes. Let's refer to the first one as Universe A and the last one as Universe Z. Universe B was created when a sentient lifeform from Universe A managed to breach the interuniversal barrier and send matter, both organic and inorganic, into an otherwise void plane, thus starting Universe B's existence as an actual universe. So billions of years go by, and Universe B finally matures to the point that Universe A was at when Universe B was created. A lifeform from Universe B then creates Universe C in the same way that Universe B was originally created. This goes on and on, until you get to Universe Z. By the time Universe Z is created, Universe A has long since collasped in upon itself and returned to a state of void. Someone from Universe Z then breaches the interuniversal wall between Universe A and Universe Z and inadvertently "reboots" Universe A, thus starting its existence over again. In this way, it is possible that a universe could be indirectly responsible for its own creation, that time is more cyclic than we ever imagined, and that we are doomed to live the same crappy lives over and over again.

Joined: Aug 24 2005 Location: Mount Holly, NJ Posts: 1062

I count myself as a scientist (a social scientist, but a scientist nontheless) AND a Christian, and I have to agree that Creationism and Evolution aren't in disagreement with one another. I think it's perfectly viable to believe in both for the reason that's already been described above (in much better detail than I could ever hope to).

In short, I completely buy evolution. There's too much evidence to refute it. I'm neither offended nor opposed to the idea that my DNA has evolved from a simpler form which had evolved from a simpler form before that, and so on. That's cool.

At the same time, I can't disregard the fact that science can not explain the origins of the Universe. The Big Bang Theory is viable, but on what plane of existence did that occur? If matter contracted to be infitesimally small and then expanded in an explosion, that HAD to have occurred in some place and at some time. Maybe it's because my brain isn't developed enough, but I can't wrap my mind around the concept that something occurred at a point in which time and space did not exist. SOMETHING had to create the space and time in which the Big Bang started. I believe there had to be a Creator of some sort that snapped his/her/its finger and said "Go."

And, call it stupid or juvenile or whatever, but I also find it comforting to think that there is such a being that has some measure of control over a world that seems crazy at times. Gives me hope that everything always has the potential of being alright in the end. /touchy-feely

So, yeah... I believe in both, pretty adamantly.

Posted: Apr 15 2008 07:37 pm

Kubo, you just perfectly stated my thoughts on the matter. I agree with every word.

Posted: Apr 15 2008 08:01 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

I believe I answered that. God is the uncaused cause.

That, or (explanation)

Can you really have an uncaused cause? It's seems like an impossible feat. Assume a blip in dark matter created a vast amount of particles which in time grew to become the planets and elements. So that means "God" is the dark matter or the blip that happened to spark everything? I love these conversations Very Happy

Posted: Apr 15 2008 08:22 pm

These are the kind of conversations I have with my friends at 3am.

Posted: Apr 15 2008 08:33 pm

i used to have these thoughts/conversations and they always went around in loops and circles like these, but now i realize that even if i find the answer to these type of issues, i still have to wake up the next day, go to work and call people and my life wouldnt really change much imo.

damn you existentialism. or is absurdism? eh whatev, wheres my beer?

Posted: Apr 15 2008 08:42 pm

The human mind is limited by its concept of time. That time is a constantly flowing, unstoppable thing. But what is time to humans? The steady aging of carbon lifeforms? The revolutions and rotations of Earth?

If we were able to conceptualize our universe outside the presence of time, I think it would be easier to accept that there does not need to be a 'starting point' to the universe.

Posted: Apr 15 2008 08:52 pm

Time, and the fact that we have eyes and have to see eveything limits our comprehension.

I personally cannot imagine the creation of the universe because I can't see nothing. Therefore, I cannot picture the nothing that was there before the universe came to be.

Am I alone on this?

Posted: Apr 15 2008 10:18 pm

You are not alone, thats why I find this whole topic/conversation fascinating.

Posted: Apr 16 2008 01:01 am

ross_rifle113 wrote:

Time, and the fact that we have eyes and have to see eveything limits our comprehension.

I personally cannot imagine the creation of the universe because I can't see nothing. Therefore, I cannot picture the nothing that was there before the universe came to be.

Am I alone on this?

nah. its a mind trip alright. its hard to not imagine anything. something has to be there.

which is why its fascinating to understand how the mayans were able to come up w/the concept of zero way before anyone else. its crazy. (at least i think it was the mayans. its been forever since world history)

if anyone ever read rant by chuck palahniuk, it tries to explain how time is more like a record w/no discernible beginning or end. it spins and spins.

kind of like the wheel of time intro.:

Quote:

"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose.... The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of time.
But it was a beginning."

Posted: Apr 16 2008 01:37 am

Jesus fuck. Yeah, ok...that kinda puts it in words. Good to see I'm not the only one stuck on the whole lack of seeing thing...

Posted: Apr 16 2008 01:52 am

username wrote:

i used to have these thoughts/conversations and they always went around in loops and circles like these, but now i realize that even if i find the answer to these type of issues, i still have to wake up the next day, go to work and call people and my life wouldnt really change much imo.

damn you existentialism. or is absurdism? eh whatev, wheres my beer?

Exactly. Let's all just be shiny happy people.

Posted: Apr 16 2008 01:52 am

Murdar Machene wrote:

Robot Cum Shoe, thank you for clarifying those 9th grade science class concepts. I thought that gravity wasn't well established because it was just a "theory".

Regarding bible fucktards; I don't see how you could even attempt to take anything from Genesis literally. It says that people are made from dirt, for fuck's sake.

"Clever" play on my moniker aside, keep in mind that much of this is not well understood by the general populace, and that "Just a theory" is the a rhetorical favorite of creationists. Its a big pet peeve of mine, hearing "evolution is a theory, NOT a fact."

Funny you mention gravity. About a year ago, I had a man approach me while I was reading in Hastings. Ignoring the fact that I had no clue who he was or even if I was listening, he proceeded to interrupt my reading to kindly explain to me that gravity, and thus all science, was complete horse-crap by using some retarded proof that involved the center of the earth or mount Everest.

Not to imply that this is common, but I'm saying that there is one person in America who can read and believes that we remain on earth due to the infinite mercy of the creator.

Posted: Apr 16 2008 02:18 am

Hawking hypothestized that the Big Bang was basically the inversion of a singularity, that instead of everything ending in a single point it emptied from it.

I regard myself as a Christian (Beliefnet pegs me as a Quaker over a Southern Baptist) and also one of logical thought. I have no problem with believing in both a higher power and evolution simultaneously.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." -Galileo Galilei

Joined: Apr 14 2006 Location: Lake Michigan Posts: 3332

The paradigm is changed so often in science, and things are proven wrong so often, it's hard sometimes to have total faith in any scientific concept, because the next generation might come up with a better theory. It seems each era discovers how their ancestors had it totally wrong, and a more accurate view of the world is found.

It goes both ways though, as most of the time I'm a doubting Thomas most of the time when it comes to religion too.

Posted: Apr 16 2008 01:15 pm

Tebor wrote:

username wrote:

i used to have these thoughts/conversations and they always went around in loops and circles like these, but now i realize that even if i find the answer to these type of issues, i still have to wake up the next day, go to work and call people and my life wouldnt really change much imo.

damn you existentialism. or is absurdism? eh whatev, wheres my beer?

Exactly. Let's all just be shiny happy people.

Amen. I don't do good things because I believe in God or that I'm afraid of going to hell. I do them because it makes me feel good. Whatever happens at the end doesn't affect my life right now. Just keep doing what you're doing, people.

Posted: Apr 16 2008 04:27 pm

S. McCracken wrote:

Tebor wrote:

username wrote:

i used to have these thoughts/conversations and they always went around in loops and circles like these, but now i realize that even if i find the answer to these type of issues, i still have to wake up the next day, go to work and call people and my life wouldnt really change much imo.

damn you existentialism. or is absurdism? eh whatev, wheres my beer?

Exactly. Let's all just be shiny happy people.

Amen. I don't do good things because I believe in God or that I'm afraid of going to hell. I do them because it makes me feel good. Whatever happens at the end doesn't affect my life right now. Just keep doing what you're doing, people.

Humanism, concern for the well being of others. Thats a philosophy that I can get behind.

Posted: Apr 16 2008 08:52 pm

It's possible to be both religiously affiliated and humanistic. I am a humanist at heart, and my ultimate goal in life is to obtain a position in which I can influence the well being of others. Maybe help sorting out some of the problems of the world.

But right now....I just need to get through the goddamn term papers...

Posted: Apr 17 2008 03:05 am

I'm late on the debate, and everyone has been polite and insightful, for the most part. All I will add is this: I'm not a Christian, and I have never experienced the whole "Christians suck because they're always trying to shove it down my throat" thing. My last relationship didn't work out because of fundamental differences in beliefs, in other words she thought I was going to hell. My only gripe is that most Christians that I have come across, be it in person or the media, believe that Christianity is THE moral guideline of humanity. In other words, without Christianity, there are not morals and that even non Christians are following the Christian rule book. I resent that deeply, because I was not raised by a religious family, and I too am not religious, but we are all generally good and moral people. I was raised to have empathy, and it's this capacity that dictates my behavior not fear of hell. I mean hell has death metal, why would I not wanna go there.

Posted: Apr 17 2008 03:36 am

Quote:

My only gripe is that most Christians that I have come across, be it in person or the media, believe that Christianity is THE moral guideline of humanity. In other words, without Christianity, there are not morals and that even non Christians are following the Christian rule book. I resent that deeply, because I was not raised by a religious family, and I too am not religious, but we are all generally good and moral people. I was raised to have empathy, and it's this capacity that dictates my behavior not fear of hell. I mean hell has death metal, why would I not wanna go there.

I couldn't agree more. As a Christian, I have enourmous respect for people who do their best to be good human beings in spite of any eternal reward they do or do not think they're going to get. In my oppinion, that's even more admirable.

As far as the realtionship thing goes, that sucks. I would never tell anyone that I thought they were going to hell. I drink quite a bit (a tad inebriated now, actually), party often, I date a non-Christian girl...the list of my supposed offenses against the hard word of the Bible are plenty, so I couldn't even tell you wether or not I'm going to heaven or hell. As far as I'm concerned, I have no place condemming others because I'm not exactly a saint myself.

Posted: Apr 17 2008 03:52 am

Yeah I think the people that ruin it on both sides are the ones who lack critical thinking skills. I know tons of Christians that are awsome people and don't judge me on my beliefs. The people that ruin it are those who are incapable of looking at both sides, and understanding opposing views. Unfortunately, it's those that get the media attention and troll the internet. Our opinions aren't entertaining because they are too logical and there is no conflict.

Posted: Apr 18 2008 03:03 pm

RobotGumshoe wrote:

Funny you mention gravity. About a year ago, I had a man approach me while I was reading in Hastings. Ignoring the fact that I had no clue who he was or even if I was listening, he proceeded to interrupt my reading to kindly explain to me that gravity, and thus all science, was complete horse-crap by using some retarded proof that involved the center of the earth or mount Everest.

Not to imply that this is common, but I'm saying that there is one person in America who can read and believes that we remain on earth due to the infinite mercy of the creator.

Go check out The Flat Earth Society. They believe in a flat Earth. They don't believe in gravity. They believe that the flat Earth is always moving up. They use this to explain "what goes up, must come down."

Valdronius wrote:

If we were able to conceptualize our universe outside the presence of time, I think it would be easier to accept that there does not need to be a 'starting point' to the universe.

I am a Christian. So this may totally conflict with everything I'm supposed to believe. I may be going to Hell in a handbasket for this. But the whole time I have been reading this and thinking to myself, I keep getting more and more lost. I have the hardest time trying to imagine a "starting point". If there were, the only cause that I feel is acceptable is, like Syd said, that God is the uncaused cause. I can't or don't have the brainpower to understand an uncaused cause without some sort of supreme being or supernatural help. Its too hard to wrap my mind around the idea that there was nothing and then, BANG!!!, now we have stuff, for no real reason. And then if its always expanding, what happens when we reach the edge of the Universe?

But even if God did create everything, what was going on before that? How was God created? Was he always there? If he was always there, what the hell (no pun intended) was he doing before he created the Universe (is universe capitalized? I think I've seen it both ways)?

For me, what seems the most logical (though still almost as hard for me to understand) is that there was no starting point and that the Universe was always there. But then if I am willing to accept that, the idea of God always being there before he created the Universe, doesn't seem as far fetched either.

I don't know what to think. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go get a lobotomy.

Posted: Apr 18 2008 03:30 pm

Burt Reynolds wrote:

My only gripe is that most Christians that I have come across, be it in person or the media, believe that Christianity is THE moral guideline of humanity. In other words, without Christianity, there are not morals and that even non Christians are following the Christian rule book. I resent that deeply, because I was not raised by a religious family, and I too am not religious, but we are all generally good and moral people. I was raised to have empathy, and it's this capacity that dictates my behavior not fear of hell. I mean hell has death metal, why would I not wanna go there.

The problem is that, regardless of whether you have religion or not, your morals are based upon Christian morals. That is because American society, and Western society in general, is based upon Christian morals. The Bible has greatly shaped what our society deems as moral and immoral, and it has greatly shaped the legal system as well. The reason you swear on the Bible in court before providing testimony has very little to do with any sort of reverence for God; it is a deference to the document that our founding fathers used to define justice.

So I guess what I'm saying is that you don't have to believe in God, fear Hell, or go to church to be a good person. But the very idea of "good" has been shaped by Christianity over the last two millenium so much so that any virtuous morality that claims to be non-Christian in nature is virtually identical to Christian morality aside from the claim of difference. Empathy, charity, loyalty, friendship, self-sacrifice, honoring one's duty, and respecting the law were all pillars of Christ's message.

Posted: Apr 18 2008 03:39 pm

scamrock wrote:

But even if God did create everything, what was going on before that?

You need to let go of the word 'before'. Accept that it is a human invention, and release it from your philosophical vocabulary.