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Posted: Nov 08 2011 09:48 pm

*Moved to General to get more attention as this has little to do with sports and more to do with morals and opinions.*

So I'm starting to get incredibly infuriated by everyone exclaiming "JoePa needs to be fired!" The basis of the story is that in 2002 a retired assistant coach was caught having undesirable contact with a minor in a shower on campus, by an Assistant Graduate. The graduate reported it to Joe Paterno who then told the Athletic Director and President of the School. They held a meeting and the Assistant Graduate described what he had seen. Now people are saying that JoePa should have been fired because he failed to tell the police. Thoughts?

Joined: Oct 21 2006 Posts: 22

The basic gist of various people's arguments is that while Paterno may have done the minimum legal requirement, but that he had a moral imperative to do more, or at the very least to not enable Sandusy's actions by allowing him to stay as part of Penn State.

Posted: Nov 08 2011 10:13 pm

BorneAgain wrote:

The basic gist of various people's arguments is that while Paterno may have done the minimum legal requirement, but that he had a moral imperative to do more, or at the very least to not enable Sandusy's actions by allowing him to stay as part of Penn State.

Sandusky was retired at the time. Joe Pa doesn't hire and fire people. He did what he was supposed to do, yet the AD and Vice President didn't do what they were LEGALLY supposed to do.

Joined: Oct 21 2006 Posts: 22

As I said, people have basically agreed that Paterno did his legal requirement, but that he should have gone to the police or at least done something more, even if the AD and VP failed to act.

Posted: Nov 08 2011 10:42 pm

I think he did all he could legally do. He didn't see it and you can't go to the cops with hearsay because they won't even take a report from what I understand. The guy who saw it should have gone to the cops and reported it.

Posted: Nov 08 2011 10:45 pm

Beach Bum wrote:

I think he did all he could legally do. He didn't see it and you can't go to the cops with hearsay because they won't even take a report from what I understand. The guy who saw it should have gone to the cops and reported it.

That's exactly what I have been saying. If the Assistant Graduate saw it he should have reported it to the police. If someone told me they saw someone rape a little boy at work, I would tell my boss. What they do with it is on them, I didn't see anything, therefore I would have nothing more to say. So sad if his Legacy is ended by this.

Posted: Nov 08 2011 10:51 pm

Yeah my response to the guy would have been: "Why the hell are you telling me and NOT the cops right now?" The reason Paterno couldn't go to the police is because their response would have basically been along these lines: "Did you actually see it? No? How do you know the guy who claims to have seen this actually did see it, and doesn't just have it out for the guy?" It was really up to the guy who saw it to file the report.

Posted: Nov 09 2011 04:46 am

I absolutely think he should step down. It's fucking pedophilia, man. You don't just tell a couple of people and then allow this dude to hang out on your campus for nearly a decade. You get rid of him. Paterno allowed him to use the football facilities even after he knew he had been accused of this disgusting act. That's just stupid.

Paterno was involved in a cover-up. He was called to testify in 2009 about this dude showering with a 10 year old boy nearly 10 years before and he still allowed him on the sidelines and gave him full reign on the facilities. As early as last week Sandusky was lifting weights in the school weight room and was working on a fucking children's charity with the help of college alum. This isn't covering up some dude cheating on his wife, or hiding some of your players getting paid...it's hiding a dude that has been accused of molesting kids more than once.

Okay, so you don't actively work to get him thrown in jail, but you at least get him away from your college campus. Bad judgement.

Posted: Nov 09 2011 09:42 am

There were guys higher up the food chain than Paterno who knew about these allegations and who had equal authority, if not more, to remove this guy from the campus.

Also, has this guy actually been convicted of anything? If not, it is reasonable for them to allow him to continue to use campus facilities. Our standard of justice is innocent until proven guilty. In the professional world, the standard of justice too often is suspended or fired as soon as you're charged with a crime, and if you're innocent, here's a nice form letter apology. I can understand the outrage that this was not done in this case, but if everyone did what zeitgeist dictated 100% of the time, America would really, really suck.

If this guy actually has been convicted of anything, ignore that last paragraph and fire everyone.

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

I work on the main campus, and I'm already completely tired of the story. As for JoePa, it's the policy of the college to formally inform the authorities of such events. Imagine if you saw the same thing happen at your work. Would you just run to the phone and invite the police over without telling anyone? Paterno answers to the athletic director, and I guess it was in his mind that someone higher up should be working with the police, instead of just calling the police based on what was a vague witness account, inviting authorities to start questioning families/faculty and investigating the campus. As far as I can tell, Paterno was in the right for reporting it. It's not going to stop him from getting canned, though, as some coach from Florida has bought a house in a nearby town. Pretty obvious what'll go down.

One thing that's not getting a lot of attention is that our old District Attorney, Ray Gricar, was actually making inquiries, but disappeared (Along with his laptop, hard drive was discovered in a river) at the same time. I hate being part of the Nancy Grace-ish type who thinks that they can piece this together, but it's definitely a weird coincidence.

Posted: Nov 09 2011 12:25 pm

They are actually legally required to inform the authorities, at least that's what PSU rules state. The Janitor or Janitors could have made a call when the one dude was walking around "looking as if he was going to have a heart attack", the Assistant Graduate who saw this happen could have said something, the KIDS could have said something, the mother who knew her son took a shower with him could have said something, but for whatever reason everyone is calling for JoePa's head because he didn't call the police based on hearsay.

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Paterno was informed by the witness, who only could piece together what happened, he didn't see anything. The mother lodged complaints to the campus (she knew something was wrong when her kid was being forced to take a shower for no good reason). Just calling the police is too simple. Complaints should have been lodged with the campus, who in turn reports and uses their authority and lordship over property to work with legal authorities, not just single calls about vague witness accounts or circumstantial evidence. From Paterno down, everyone made the most productive decision in order to get an investigation going. It was the higher-ups trying to push it away who are legally in the wrong.

Joined: Apr 14 2006 Location: Lake Michigan Posts: 3332

Afterward, when he didn't hear anything about any police investigation at all over Sandusky's rape of a mere child, he should have contacted the police himself. Same goes for the grad assistant, McQueary, and the school president, Spanier. They should all be fired immediately. They effectively swept it under the rug by ignoring it by just banning Sandusky from bringing children to campus, in order to protect the school's reputation; it was a cover-up.

Posted: Nov 10 2011 06:25 pm

One point I'd like to add is that JoPA, as a teacher (assuming he meets that definition) is subject to mandatory child abuse reporting laws. These laws are clear and do not allow a mandatory reporter to simply pass the buck by reporting it to a higher authority within the school. Under the Pennsyvania law, "A mandated reporter who has reasonable cause to suspect that a child is an abused or neglected child shall make a report to the Department of Public Welfare." Cons. Stat. Tit. 23 § 6311. The use of the word shall required JoPa to report to the State if he had "reasonable cause". As a mandatory reporter myself, I am acutely aware of the requirements that come with being a mandatory reporter and if JoPa had such cause to believe, he absolutely failed in his legal duty to report the incident.

The issue to me seems to be how much did JoPa know and how credible was the source. JoPa appears to, at best, have taken a head-in-the-sand approach to a very serious allegation, and at worst, violated his legal obligation. Even under the former standard, the University really had no choice but to fire him. To stand by him, in what in the coming days and weeks I'm sure will be a massive police investigation, would be far too detrimental to the school if it turns out that JoPa was complicit in an attempt to cover up or ignore the issue. Sure, it may come out that JoPa did absolutely nothing overtly inappropriate, but the University really can't afford to take that risk.

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Well, Spanier and Paterno are both out. Glad to see Spanier go, guy was an egomaniacal a-hole. I do wish Paterno got a more graceful dismissal than what he got (at least let him get the last home game of the year this week). McQueary is a tough one, since he can sue for Retaliation if they fire him for reporting the event. It's going to be interesting to see what the Trustees do from now on, since they rarely take action on anything here.

Posted: Nov 10 2011 07:25 pm

This guy states a lot of my problems with the whole situation. Things I had said when this first came out. Glad to know I wasn't alone...http://www.huffingtonpost.com/onward-state/sandusky-scandal-national_b_1085201.html

Posted: Nov 10 2011 08:03 pm

Douche, are you aware of the details of this and how much Paterno knew? If so, I'm surprised you have such a forgiving attitude towards someone knowingly covering up child sodomy and molestation.

Here's an article that aligns more with what I feel:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/ncf/story/_/id/7214855/former-penn-state-coach-joe-paterno-deserve-sympathy-losing-job

Quote:

Paterno has admitted he should have done more to stop that physical and psychological suffering outlined in brutal detail in the grand jury's report. It wasn't much of a concession, given that in 2002, he received an eyewitness account of a naked Sandusky in the showers with a naked boy -- the witness, Mike McQueary, later would testify the former defensive coordinator was forcing anal intercourse on the child -- and yet Paterno chose to do next to nothing about it.

You find out a dude is trying to fuck a kid in the ass on the campus that you helped build to prominence and you allow this man to maintain an influential position on campus. You allow him free reign on the facilities and to hang out on the sidelines during games? Even after hearing about MULTIPLE allegations? Fuck the legality (which he isn't even in the clear--expect minimally obstruction of justice charges against Paterno), but you have the moral responsibility as the main man on campus to take control of the situation. You don't just pass it off to someone and wipe your hands clean of the whole affair. He allowed the cover up to continue. He runs the show at Penn St. and he just says to a couple people "Hey, this is going on" but gives no advice like "Hey, call the cops on this scumbag." Bullshit.

I'm glad he doesn't get to coach another game and have 100,000 fans who choose to remain ignorant of the details give him a roaring applause as a farewell. Fuck that.

Let me be clear. I don't think Joe Paterno is the biggest villain in this. Not at all. But I do do think he should be fired over this.

Posted: Nov 10 2011 10:02 pm

Mike McQueary should have called the cops. Fire him. Joe should have called the cops if McQueary didn't. All of these adults/educators hushing it up is beyond disturbing. If Joe fulfilled his legal obligation just by reporting it to the Athletic Director, he should have been following up on this shit every day until he knew this sicko was under police investigation. If a head coach can follow up on recruiting prospective players, he sure as hell can follow up on child rape in the locker room.

Wizard Joined: Jun 12 2009 Posts: 4209

... Uh.

I think I came into this conversation a bit late.

Posted: Nov 10 2011 10:18 pm

Klimbatize wrote:

Douche, are you aware of the details of this and how much Paterno knew? If so, I'm surprised you have such a forgiving attitude towards someone knowingly covering up child sodomy and molestation.

No one knows what JoePa knew besides JoePa. He said "In hindsight, I could have done more." In hindsight, he says, meaning if he knew what he knew now he would have done more. Not "I should have done more". Excuse me for thinking that JoePa didn't hear the words anal sex and little child. Also the fact that Sandusky's being investigated went by the media so easily it makes it even harder to believe that JoePa was aware of anything Sandusky was doing.

This article wasn't about JoePa being innocent as much as it was about the media attacking JoePa furiously because his name tied to this story would sell papers and create clicks. If this was John Doe from Idaho, we would hear very little of his "inability" to save and protect the children.

Posted: Nov 10 2011 10:52 pm

Douche McCallister wrote:

If this was John Doe from Idaho, we would hear very little of his "inability" to save and protect the children.

But it's not John Doe from Idaho. It's an influential man on one of the biggest college campuses in this country.

Anyone who hears that a child is being molested should do everything they can to find out the truth about what's going on. End of story.

Paterno is a leader, and he should have done more when allegations that someone close to him and his organization was caught TRYING TO FUCK A 10 YEAR OLD BOY IN THE ASS IN A SHOWER IN THE CAMPUS FOOTBALL FACILITIES.

Posted: Nov 10 2011 11:00 pm

Klimbatize wrote:

Douche McCallister wrote:

If this was John Doe from Idaho, we would hear very little of his "inability" to save and protect the children.

But it's not John Doe from Idaho. It's an influential man on one of the biggest college campuses in this country.

Anyone who hears that a child is being molested should do everything they can to find out the truth about what's going on. Bottom line.

And I'm not saying they shouldn't have. The fact of the matter remains that if the AD and Vice President report this to the police this wouldn't be an issue. I just have a hard time believing that Joe Pa heard a little boy was being raped and did nothing. I don't think McQueary was straightforward saying what he witnessed, and worded it in a not as serious manner. Also asking an 84 year old man what he was told 9 years ago? Regardless of how old you are you are not going to remember what you said verbatim.

What bothers me MUCH MUCH more is that McQueary has seen Sandusky, and had conversations with him, yet he doesn't question what's going on? He witnessed one of if not THE most disgusting thing one can see.

Posted: Nov 10 2011 11:35 pm

Anyone can make allegations, Klimb. If Douche tells me you're a child rapist, you want me to call the cops immediately, just to err on the side of caution? Once allegations like that are made publicly, there's no undoing them. I'm with Douche on this one. I doubt that compelling evidence was ever brought to Paterno in a manner that demanded urgent action on his part. Also, Paterno did what he was supposed to do. His job is to coach football, administrators are there specifically to deal with shit like this. He reported it to them.

Wizard Joined: Jun 12 2009 Posts: 4209

Just so I'm clear (I'm a little behind), we're discussing whether Paterno's actions were justified, either from a moral standpoint or a professional one? Because it's apparent to me that Paterno was keeping to his job when he reported it to his higher ups (if you can call it that?), but I agree with Klim that it should have also been reported to the authorities immediately. There are some things you just don't fuck around with.

Posted: Nov 10 2011 11:54 pm

I don't think I necessarily said exactly what I wanted to say.

Let me try again. The allegations made against Sandusky are life destroying. Once you're labelled a pedophile in the public arena, your life is over and you're guilty even if proven innocent. If someone came to me with allegations like that, I wouldn't call the cops unless I was ABSOLUTELY SURE that could be some veracity to them, especially if it was a longtime coworker whom I had no prior suspicions about. If I was in Paterno's place, I would have reported the allegations to my superiors and let them deal with it. I'm not gonna be the guy who makes any decisions about what happens next. Unless I see or hear something with my own eyes, I'm not gonna be the one who points the finger. Some kid runs crying into my office and says he was just raped, then HELL YES, I'm gonna call the cops. But that's not what happened.

I really do not, at all, understand the outrage against Paterno. If he wasn't a highly decorated coach, I doubt there was be so much anger directed at him. But everyone loves a shitstorm, so let's shit on Paterno.