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Pandajuice
Title: The Power of Grayskull
Joined: Oct 30 2008
Location: US and UK
Posts: 2649
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| aika wrote: |
Seriously, complying with police is probably the best way to deal with them. If you're polite, responsive, and respect their authority, things will go a lot easier. If you're not being a bad boy and have nothing to hide, then what's the big deal? |
This. I am one of those people who say, "If you have nothing to hide, then what do you care?" If police officers knocked on my door and wanted to do a search, I'd let them and be as polite as possible. Why? Because I have nothing to hide and privacy is pretty overrated when it comes to allowing an official authority to determine one's innocence or guilt. In fact, I've noticed the only people worried about privacy are those who are afraid of what someone may find.
As others have said, they're just trying to do their jobs and find the bad guys. From their perspective you're a suspect for whatever reason and if you're innocent and cooperate with them, you'll very quickly fall off the suspect list and be allowed to covet your made-up privacy again. Not only that, but you may even be compensated by the city for your trouble instead of ending up in prison futily defending whatever idea of the 4th amemdment you may have.
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Cpt. Fantastic
Title: El Capitan
Joined: May 29 2008
Location: The Great Northwest
Posts: 196
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I think a lot of what I have to say has been covered (nice legal analysis Usa) but I always like to throw my two cents in those rare cases I actually know what I'm talking about.
First, the issue of redress for constitutional violations are twofold. One is the exclusionary rule which is a child of judicial decisions and allows for the exclusion of evidence in criminal and certain civil court proceedings when that evidence was obtained through a constitutional violation of the person asserting that the evidence should be excluded. To restate, if the State obtains evidence and the method of obtaining said evidence violated your constitutional rights, and the State cannot offer a defense to the violation (e.g. inevitable discovery), that evidence cannot be used against you. It could, however, be used against another person whose rights weren't violated. The second redress is a ยง1983 claim. Congress passed 42 USC 1983 because of often when a person's constitutional rights are violated they suffer no monetary damages. Section 1983 states that actual damages are not required and the violation itself supports a monetary award. These claims are profitable and Plaintiffs in them are entitled to attorney fees, so any person can bring them at no personal expense.
Second, If the cops showed up at my door and asked to be let in, I would absolutely say no and I encourage all my clients to do the same. If the cops decide to come in anyway, I encourage my clients to ask them politely to leave and then sit quietly and say nothing if the cops don't leave. Resisting cops, even if you have the "right" to do so, is a really bad idea. Police officers have great discretion to act to protect themselves and others from physical threats.
Finally, there are many exceptions to the warrant requirement, and as Usa stated, consent is the most oft used exception. A lot of cops are quite adept at lawfully convincing a person to consent. Other exigencies include extenuating circumstances, hot pursuit, preservation of evidence.
I guess the point of my rant is that there exists redress for constitutional violations and, frankly, for the most part, constitutional violations by the police are unintended. The cops know the exclusionary rule and are generally careful to avoid it.
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 "I have been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit"
-Mel Brooks
"I can wire anything directly into anything! I'm the Professor!"
-Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth |
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lavalarva
2011 SNES Champ
Joined: Dec 04 2006
Posts: 1929
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What if they find something incredibly incriminating during an illegal search, like a corpse in the living room?
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Cpt. Fantastic
Title: El Capitan
Joined: May 29 2008
Location: The Great Northwest
Posts: 196
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| lavalarva wrote: |
| What if they find something incredibly incriminating during an illegal search, like a corpse in the living room? |
The evidence must be excluded. See, http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16659294260001267402&q=Leonardo+Turriago&hl=en&as_sdt=2,38
Although, even in that case (where the NY Appellate Court excluded a body found in a car), a later, higher court opinion found that an exception applied. In that case, it was inevitable discovery. Courts and judges are quite adept at finding exceptions to the exclusionary rule in the face of overwhelming evidence of guilt.
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 "I have been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit"
-Mel Brooks
"I can wire anything directly into anything! I'm the Professor!"
-Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth |
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Izzy
Title: Mascot Gold
Joined: Jul 25 2009
Location: KC, KS
Posts: 266
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| Dr. Jeebus wrote: |
| Izzy wrote: |
| Dr. Jeebus wrote: |
| This isn't saying the 4th amendment is a suggestion nor does it have ANYTHING to do with the war on terror. Sounds to me like you're an ignorant talking head and this decision is being made as a matter of public safety. |
Or it could be the war has fostered a feeling of general "meh" when it comes to individual liberty because we are only using this against the "bad guys." And these are the results of the years living under that feeling.
Of course it doesn't state the 4th amendment is a suggestion, do you think it would pass public opinion if it literally did? |
You're a moron. This has nothing to do with the war, nor is it only used against "bad guys". This ruling is designed to protect the good guys, not hurt the bad guys. |
And you're being a douche. I don't know what's with the insults but I'm sorry if I offended you in some way.
My comparison with the war is that it has lead to a general feeling that the erosion of rights is ok in the name of security. 15 years ago, something like this doesn't fly. No, it doesn't protect the good guys. To save their own skin, cops planted evidence in the case in Atlanta. How many illegal entries does it take for a cop to lose his/her job, good intentions or not? 2? 3? When it comes to that point, how many cops are going to do anything they can to justify their entry?
| aika wrote: |
Yes, because those are the big guys with the guns who are busting your door down. What part of it makes you think you should be resisting them?
Seriously, complying with police is probably the best way to deal with them. If you're polite, responsive, and respect their authority, things will go a lot easier. If you're not being a bad boy and have nothing to hide, then what's the big deal? |
And that is the state you want to be in? If the judges had also taken the time to chew out illegal searches and had placed their emphasis on reducing/eliminating those, I probably wouldn't have such an issue.
| Pandajuice wrote: |
This. I am one of those people who say, "If you have nothing to hide, then what do you care?" If police officers knocked on my door and wanted to do a search, I'd let them and be as polite as possible. Why? Because I have nothing to hide and privacy is pretty overrated when it comes to allowing an official authority to determine one's innocence or guilt. In fact, I've noticed the only people worried about privacy are those who are afraid of what someone may find.
As others have said, they're just trying to do their jobs and find the bad guys. From their perspective you're a suspect for whatever reason and if you're innocent and cooperate with them, you'll very quickly fall off the suspect list and be allowed to covet your made-up privacy again. Not only that, but you may even be compensated by the city for your trouble instead of ending up in prison futily defending whatever idea of the 4th amemdment you may have. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&feature=related
I hope none of you take this the wrong way. My intention here was not to be an ass or to talk down to anyone, it was to inform. Panda, in your own post you state the reason why you should never just be ready to dive head first into cooperating with the police: to them, you're a suspect.
In no way am I condoning acting like a jack ass to cops. In no way am I condoning the killing of cops (or their killing of innocent citizens for that matter). What I am saying is don't be naive enough to believe that you being innocent is enough to protect you.
The gentleman in the video and Cpt. Fantastic brought it across a lot more eloquently then I did. There is a middle ground and this decision did not reach it.
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
Posts: 7565
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Izzy, you have yet to answer the key question - if a police officer is entering your home, and you don't feel his entry is legal, do you feel you should be able to use force to expel him from your property?
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Izzy
Title: Mascot Gold
Joined: Jul 25 2009
Location: KC, KS
Posts: 266
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No you should not use force. He has a gun you do not (and even if you did, he probably has better aim and armor then you). And if it comes to a cops word vs. yours in a court of law you are bound to lose.
I thought the not condoning the killing of cops thing made it clear.
Watch the film?
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
Posts: 7565
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| Izzy wrote: |
No you should not use force. He has a gun you do not (and even if you did, he probably has better aim and armor then you). And if it comes to a cops word vs. yours in a court of law you are bound to lose.
I thought the not condoning the killing of cops thing made it clear. |
Then you agree with the court decision.
It has nothing to do with what a cop can do to justify his entry. It has nothing to do with planting evidence. It has nothing to do with your right to refuse entry to a law enforcement officer without a warrant, or a police officer's right to do so. It has nothing, nothing at all to do with any of those rights which you so very clearly have and we should defend.
It simply says what you did - that if a cop barges into your home, you don't resist him doing so. You keep your mouth shut, let him do his thing, and get an attorney on the phone.
I completely get the greater implications of this, hell, I agree with most of what you say, but it doesn't apply here. It's just one ruling that covers one specific situation. People tend to read way too much into a ruling. Court decisions only affect what they say they do, and only in the jurisdiction the court rules over (so this ruling isn't even an issue outside the state of Indiana...I'm curious as to what other states have on the books about this. Resident Lawyer Man?)
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Izzy
Title: Mascot Gold
Joined: Jul 25 2009
Location: KC, KS
Posts: 266
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No, that does not mean I agree with the decision.
What I choose to personally do is not something everyone should have forced upon them. There's a reason why we're not a pure democracy.
These court decisions set precedents, it doesn't just affect this incident.
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Cpt. Fantastic
Title: El Capitan
Joined: May 29 2008
Location: The Great Northwest
Posts: 196
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God this decision is stupid. The Indiana Supreme Court easily could have came to the same conclusion on exigency grounds. It seems they are attempting to make a point. "The Supreme Court has affirmed this right as recently as 1948. United States v. Di Re, ('One has an undoubted right to resist an unlawful arrest, and courts will uphold the right of resistance in proper cases.')." The reasoning of the Court is that the new grounds for redress didn't exist during the older jurisprudence surrounding resisting unlawful arrest. That argument however assumes that Congressional action can alter the meaning of the Constitution. Were the Supreme Court to hear this on Appeal (who knows if they would even grant cert.) I think they would overturn this decision.
There are a myriad of interpretations the Indiana Supreme Court could have used to arrive at the same conclusion but they just seemed to be wanting to make a point.
And as Usa said, the ruling of a State Court has no impact or authority outside of that State. I did a quick search of other States and what I have come up with so far shows a split of states regarding the right to resist, with reasonably necessary force, an unlawful arrest under the Fourth Amendment.
McCracken v. Commonwealth, 39 Va. App. 254 (Virginia) (yes right to resist)
Ellison v. State, 410 A.2d 519 (Delaware) (no right to resist)
Many other cases I encountered show a Court doing it's best to decide the issue on other grounds (like exigency, hot pursuit or mistaken probable cause).
Another important thing to keep in mind is that, from what I have read, no federal appellate court has ruled on this issue and the Supreme Court has mentioned it only in dicta. That said, I still think, if cert. were to be granted and the Supreme Court heard the case, I think they would rule that there is a right, under the Fourth Amendment, to resist an unlawful arrest.
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 "I have been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit"
-Mel Brooks
"I can wire anything directly into anything! I'm the Professor!"
-Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth |
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aika
Title: Narcissist
Joined: Apr 25 2008
Location: On the table.
Posts: 2041
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But are we talking about unlawful arrest, or unlawful entry into one's house?
Regardless, I doubt I'd resist either way, even if it was unlawful. Getting smart with cops isn't something I'd want to test. Then again, maybe if I had something bad that would get found on an unlawful search, I'd be more concerned about this. I don't smoke weed, tho. I don't even smoke cigarettes. Maybe if I had had more run-ins with police, I'd be more interested in this as well, but my interaction with them has been limited to just a few traffic incidents, during which the majority of them were quite polite and understanding.
I still agree with the bunny, though. The time to contest an unlawful entry -or an unlawful arrest- is after the fact, not during. Getting snippy with the cops, arguing, etc only gives them a host of other (petty) things they could arrest you for.
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 天上天下唯我独尊 |
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