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Supreme Court Weighing Free Speech


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SoldierHawk
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Title: Warrior-Poet
Joined: Jan 15 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Nov 15 2010 04:08 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Pandajuice wrote:
If they kept their signs and website generalized, they'd be fine, but ****they wrote a poem about this particular dead soldier**** and publicly slandered his family.

They did...WHAT? They...those...I...no words...does not compute....homicidal rage going out of control...

I swear to god, if I was the parents of that soldier, I would kill them. I just would. There would be no disincentive in heaven or on earth that would make blasting them to hell seem like less of a good idea. Pulling this kind of...*at a complete loss of adjectives* stuff, and then gleefully shielding yourself behind one of the most sacred principles of our democracy is NOT okay. I guess the Justices will decide if its technically legal, but there needs to be SOME other way to handle these people. Just...no words.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go listen to some Dope until I calm down.


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Natsu
Joined: Sep 17 2010
PostPosted: Nov 15 2010 07:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I can understand expressing their view, but why express it there, then, and in that manner, when they know it'll ruin the ceremony, and be a great disrespect toward the people participating in it.
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aika
Title: Narcissist
Joined: Apr 25 2008
Location: On the table.
PostPosted: Nov 15 2010 08:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Man, these guys again. Sad I wish I had something witty to contribute that no one else has said, but all I can do is just agree with everyone else and wish we could somehow deport these people to some chunk of land that the people countries don't want anymore get thrown away to. Maybe Antarctica?

GPFontaine wrote:
Free speech means you can say anything, it doesn't mean you should say everything. A day might come when you need help. It sure would suck if everyone hated you at that time.

Quote:
Shortly after finishing their protest at the funeral of Army Sgt. Jason James McCluskey of McAlester, a half-dozen protesters from Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan., headed to their minivan, only to discover that its front and rear passenger-side tires had been slashed.

To make matters worse, as their minivan slowly hobbled away on two flat tires, with a McAlester police car following behind, the protesters were unable to find anyone in town who would repair their vehicle, according to police.

Aaaaaaahahaha that just made my night. Very Happy


天上天下唯我独尊
 
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FNJ
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Joined: Jun 07 2006
PostPosted: Nov 16 2010 09:08 am Reply with quote Back to top

Tl:dr.

The basic gist that I'm getting is that people are a bunch of insensitive assholes. How is this any different from standing outside of a jay-z concert, shouting "fuck the niggers!" and expecting not to get shot?

Also, C'mon church guys. Protesting a dead guy doing what he's told is lame and boring. Y'all gotta protest government functions and stuff.


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Undeath
Title: Facepuncher of Asses
Joined: Jan 15 2009
Location: Here
PostPosted: Nov 16 2010 11:25 am Reply with quote Back to top

The only thing these assclowns need to be protesting is our forceful deportation of them to Pluto.


Cracked.com wrote:
"MARGARINE IS ONE MOLECULE AWAY FROM PLASTIC."

Not only is that not right, that's not even wrong. It's a meaningless statement. Saying something is "one molecule away" from plastic is like saying a farm is one letter away from a fart. Water is "one molecule away" from being explosive hydrogen gas.

 
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Atma
Title: Dragoon
Joined: Apr 29 2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
PostPosted: Nov 16 2010 12:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Undeath wrote:
The only thing these assclowns need to be protesting is our forceful deportation of them to Pluto.

Pluto would be too kind. Give them some property on the Sun and deport them to it quickly.

I'd chip in $10 bucks for airfare.
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Undeath
Title: Facepuncher of Asses
Joined: Jan 15 2009
Location: Here
PostPosted: Nov 16 2010 12:23 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The reason I picked Pluto over the Sun is that, in astronomical units, Pluto is much farther away. Plus, the Sun probably would provide too quick a death. As a matter of fact, I'd make sure they could survive the trip to Pluto just to see them try to survive it on the harsh, unforgiving surface of a (former) planet on the edge of the immediate solar system.

Plus, incinerating Phelps and his ilk would at the very least mean the light from his interstellar ashes would reach me in 8 minutes. That's far too immediate and offensive to me.

I see your $10 and submit my son's entire college fund, if it gets these fucks out of the way forever.


Cracked.com wrote:
"MARGARINE IS ONE MOLECULE AWAY FROM PLASTIC."

Not only is that not right, that's not even wrong. It's a meaningless statement. Saying something is "one molecule away" from plastic is like saying a farm is one letter away from a fart. Water is "one molecule away" from being explosive hydrogen gas.

 
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Atma
Title: Dragoon
Joined: Apr 29 2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
PostPosted: Nov 16 2010 12:32 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Undeath wrote:
I see your $10 and submit my son's entire college fund, if it gets these fucks out of the way forever.

Laughing
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
PostPosted: Nov 16 2010 01:04 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Social justice. Nothing like it.
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Lady_Satine
Title: Head of Lexian R&D
Joined: Oct 15 2005
Location: Metro area, Georgia
PostPosted: Mar 02 2011 01:44 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Necroing for relevance and tl; dr: At a ruling of 8-1 (Samuel Alito was the only dissenter), the church is still allowed to do its bullshit funeral protests.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110302/ap_on_re_us/us_supreme_court_funeral_protests


"Life is a waste of time. Time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
 
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
PostPosted: Mar 02 2011 03:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

That is bullshit i'm not American but surely religious extremism (this is what this is) can not fall under free speech as in the constitution.

Hypothetical scenario time.

In Britain there is a lot of hate speech going on by Muslims about how the government sucks and how they are going to get killed etc. (which is it does at the moment but that's beside the point).

e.g. see this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10357263

were extremists who promote hate get banned from the country.

Quote:
That includes banning people if she believes their views glorify terrorism, promote violence or encourage other serious crime.

Say that it was a islamic group picketing a funeral and considering Americas relations with islamic countries over the past decade would this have panned out similarily?

I.e. just because it's a christian group can get they get away with it?

What they are doing is a hate crime.

Quote:
Defined in the 1999 National Crime Victim Survey, "A hate crime is a criminal offense. In the United States, federal prosecution is possible for hate crimes committed on the basis of a person's race, religion, or nation origin when engaging in a federally protected activity."

Not only are they picketing a funeral which is hate in itself they are condemning homosexuality among other things. That as it says above, is a criminal offence.
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
PostPosted: Mar 02 2011 04:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

It's certainly hate, but they're not doing anything illegal, so it can't be a hate crime.

Oh well. Problem with a free society is the assholes are free too. :/
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aeonic
Title: Sporadic Poster
Joined: Nov 19 2009
Location: Kissimmee, FL
PostPosted: Mar 02 2011 04:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I still think the family of the soldier involved in the poem should sue for slander. Still, free speech is free speech, and cretins deserve it just as much as anyone else does. That's the price we pay for living in a country while, not perfect by any means, isn't a terrible third-world dictatorship hole.


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Douche McCallister
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Title: DOO-SHAY
Joined: Jan 26 2007
Location: Private Areas
PostPosted: Mar 02 2011 05:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

"Forty-eight states, 42 U.S. senators and veterans groups had sided with Snyder, asking the court to shield funerals from the Phelps family's psychological terrorism." How bout making an amendment to the constitution if so many people feel so strongly about this.

The fact that the Supreme Court even heard this case when it was already decided previously to be Unconstitutional was a shock. They usually only do that if they feel the ruling was wrong. I'm surprised they didn't make a ruling in Snyders favor using funerals as a scapegoat.


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GPFontaine
Joined: Dec 06 2007
Location: Connecticut
PostPosted: Mar 02 2011 05:48 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Freedom of Speech does not mean freedom of consequences.

If the system will not protect the true victims here, society will clean up the mess... most likely in a way that is shocking, yet predictably so.

I am not advocating vigilantism or suggesting that any form of retaliation is a good thing... I am however convinced it is inevitable.



 
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Cpt. Fantastic
Title: El Capitan
Joined: May 29 2008
Location: The Great Northwest
PostPosted: Mar 02 2011 06:59 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I'm no Constitutional lawyer, but from what I remember, there are quite a few exceptions to free speech. The most important point to keep in mind is in the text of the First Amendment itself. The First Amendment only applies to State Action, i.e. the State (Feds through the First amendment, States through the 14th). So the state can't pass laws that infringe on free speech. However, they can pass laws restricting free speech where, (1) the law is content neutral, (2) the motivation for the law is unrelated to the "suppression of free expression", and (3) the suppression of free expression is an incidental side effect of the law. For instance, most cities have laws prohibiting loud noises after a certain time at night. This certainly infringes on free expression, but the law is content neutral (i.e. doesn't prohibit certain viewpoints, only any loud noises), the motivation is to keep things quiet so people can get their sleep and the suppression is incidental.

Other exceptions include: defamation (slander and libel), hate speech (e.g. burning crosses in people's yards), causing panic (e.g. yelling fire in a crowded theater), fighting words (words whose very utterance cause harm, e.g. racial slurs said right to someone's face), obsenity, incitement (e.g. soliciting a person to commit a crime).
In this case, the family of the soldier sued under several tort theories (intentional infliction of emotion distress, intrusion upon seclusion among others). The Defendant's defended by arguing that their speech was protected (so, they argue the state action here was the Court by deciding against them). In such a situation the Court has to look at the nature of the two side's interests (i.e. weigh the nature of the speech against the privacy interests of the family).

When engaging in this kind of weighing, the Courts look at the nature, place and manner of the speech. where the speech concerns a public interest and is in a traditional public forum, the Court will give such speech the greatest protection it can. As Justice Roberts said, "Westboro addressed matters of public import on public property, in a peaceful manner, in full compliance with the guidance of local officials." When the speech is on a public matter, in a public place and abides by other local laws which incidentally govern speech, and said speech does not fall in one of the traditional exceptions, it is almost impossible to hold that said speech can give rise to civil liability.

A good analogy would be the right that KKK members have to publicly assemble and disseminate their "literature". I think most people find their ideas repugnant, but that is all part and parcel of free society and free speech.


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SoldierHawk
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Title: Warrior-Poet
Joined: Jan 15 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Mar 02 2011 09:20 pm Reply with quote Back to top

http://www.military.com/news/article/high-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-church.html?ESRC=army-a.nl

*sigh* Sad .

I understand why. But I still can't find the stomach in myself to agree.


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Dr. Jeebus
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Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Mar 03 2011 12:03 am Reply with quote Back to top

Am I really the only person here who agrees with this decision? Yes, they're douchebags and I wish they were dead, but you can't fuck with the constitution just because you don't like someone.


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username
Title: owner of a lonely heart
Joined: Jul 06 2007
Location: phoenix, az usa
PostPosted: Mar 03 2011 12:09 am Reply with quote Back to top

i agree w/the decision. i dont like it, but its one of the reasons we live in this country. freedom of speech


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Cpt. Fantastic
Title: El Capitan
Joined: May 29 2008
Location: The Great Northwest
PostPosted: Mar 03 2011 02:01 am Reply with quote Back to top

A completely agree with the decision, but I also see Justice Alito's point in dissent.

"This Court has recognized that words may by their very utterance inflict injury and that the First Amendment does not shield utterances that form“no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality. . . . When grave injury is intentionally inflicted by means of an attack like the one at issue here, the First Amendment should not interfere with recovery. (internal citations omitted). . . . In light of this evidence, it is abundantly clear that respondents, going far beyond commentary on matters of public concern, specifically attacked Matthew Snyder because (1) he was a Catholic and (2) he was a member of the United States military. Both Matthew and petitioner were private figures, and this attack was not speech on a matter of public concern."

Why not fit this conduct into the exception for fighting words? Intentional infliction of emotional distress itself is usually done through words. The difference, in my opinion, is the nature of the speech (on a public matter) and the location of the speech (traditional public forum).


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"I can wire anything directly into anything! I'm the Professor!"
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 03 2011 02:16 am Reply with quote Back to top

Wait, so free speech is restricted to matters of public concern? Since when? Last time I checked, I absolutely have the right to call you a fucking dumbass.


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Jack Slater
Title: Friendly Felon
Joined: May 17 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
PostPosted: Mar 03 2011 02:19 am Reply with quote Back to top

Don't agree with them, although I'm sure that God is smiting this place(but for different reasons,) pretty sure they are some kind of psycho psyop, but you do have to admit that they have balls of steel.

Frankly, I'm surprised nobody's shot them yet.

You know, if we legalized dueling in this country a whole lot of shit would get better. And muthafuckin riz-eal.


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Cpt. Fantastic
Title: El Capitan
Joined: May 29 2008
Location: The Great Northwest
PostPosted: Mar 03 2011 02:29 am Reply with quote Back to top

It's not that free speech is restricted to matters of public concern. The point is the level of scrutiny the Court gives to State action restricting the speech. It's a weighing of the interests issue. Where the speech concerns a public interest the Courts will apply "strict scrutiny" to the State action. Basically the Court has decided that speech that is of public concern should be given greater protection than other speech. As an example, calling a person a fascist, to his face, is fighting words (that was the fact scenario in Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire the case defining fighting words). Those words' sole point is to provoke and insult that person. That is very different than staging a public protest over a public matter.

Unfortunately, you don't have the right to call a person a fucking dumbass if, in doing so, your words are likely to provoke an immediate and publicly disruptive response. doing so can subject you to state criminal laws (see local criminal mischief statutes).

See this link (the first gray shaded block) for a good synopsis of fighting words and freedom of speech. http://www.lawsonry.com/2011/01/was-jared-lee-loughner-a-right-wing-extremist/


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JRA
Joined: Sep 17 2007
Location: The Opium Trail
PostPosted: Mar 03 2011 02:46 am Reply with quote Back to top

If I can't go unpunished swearing on the radio, these guys shouldn't go unpunished for their actions. It's as simple as that.

The first amendment has been dead since Federal Communications Commission v. Pacifica Foundation.


There are a lot of what if's in life Donny. What if I hit you really hard in the face, knocked yo shit to the back of yo skull? What if I....had you girl gargle my nuts? The fact remains, you are a fuckin mutant.
 
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Pandajuice
Title: The Power of Grayskull
Joined: Oct 30 2008
Location: US and UK
PostPosted: Mar 03 2011 07:34 am Reply with quote Back to top

Dr. Jeebus wrote:
Wait, so free speech is restricted to matters of public concern? Since when? Last time I checked, I absolutely have the right to call you a fucking dumbass.


I get why the decision was made, but what I don't understand is why everyone is thinking in all or nothing terms. Sure, keep protests legal and let these nutjobs picket funerals because it is their right to free speech, but how about just a nominal clause or law that states anyone picketing a funeral must remain 100+ (or some other arbitrary number) feet away from the grounds so as not to interfere with the service. I think most Americans would be satisfied with that.

I mean at some point, their disruption of the service is disturbing the peace, right?
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