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Joined: Mar 18 2010 Location: Tuonela Posts: 299

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110220/ap_on_re_us/us_guns_on_campus

Quote:

AUSTIN, Texas – Texas is preparing to give college students and professors the right to carry guns on campus, adding momentum to a national campaign to open this part of society to firearms.

Texas has become a prime battleground for the issue because of its gun culture and its size, with 38 public universities and more than 500,000 students. It would become the second state, following Utah, to pass such a broad-based law. Colorado gives colleges the option and several have allowed handguns.

Supporters of the legislation argue that gun violence on campuses, such as the mass shootings at Virginia Tech in 2007 and Northern Illinois in 2008, show that the best defense against a gunman is students who can shoot back.

"It's strictly a matter of self-defense," said state Sen. Jeff Wentworth, R-San Antonio. "I don't ever want to see repeated on a Texas college campus what happened at Virginia Tech, where some deranged, suicidal madman goes into a building and is able to pick off totally defenseless kids like sitting ducks."

Which part I'm missing here, that reveals this as some kind of surreal, tasteless joke?

Posted: Feb 21 2011 10:40 am

Just another reason to love Texas. Go Texas!

Posted: Feb 21 2011 10:50 am

I don't really see what's wrong with college students being allowed to carry firearms, although I'd support the institutions' rights to ban them if they see fit, as you aren't required to go there.

Posted: Feb 21 2011 10:55 am

Wow, there's no slant to that article at all. I love the stock photo pulled out specifically for this article with Rick Perry looking like an a wild gunman (although he is a bit of an ass).

Also, your quote left out the part where it states that it is for students and professors with concealed handgun licenses. Texas is not an open carry state.

Several regular school districts in Texas already allow teachers to carry on campus if they possess a CHL.

Joined: Mar 18 2010 Location: Tuonela Posts: 299

Ice2SeeYou wrote:

I don't really see what's wrong with college students being allowed to carry firearms

I suppose the question here is, does increasing the amount of firearms decrease gun violence. My logic says no.

Then again, I'm not that familiar with Texas and the social context we're talking about. I was hoping somebody could illuminate the logic behind this, but I hope the logic isn't as simple as "if somebody is going to start a killing spree, students can just shoot him. Problem solved."

Posted: Feb 21 2011 11:44 am

I understand the concept behind this. Especially for Texas.

"If someone is shooting at me, I can now shoot back."

It sorta makes sense to me, in the fact of, if someone is going to commit a violent act with a gun on school grounds, they're going to bring one if they're banned or not.

Maybe the thought of "Shit, I don't know how many other people have a gun either." Could deter things?

But mostly people like that don't give a shit anyway, and now it also arms people who get into a "Heat of the moment" fight and can draw a gun.

I'm not sure where I exactly stand at on this one, I'm not 100% for it, but I'm not 100% against it either.

Joined: Jun 29 2010 Posts: 1818

Atma wrote:

Maybe the thought of "Shit, I don't know how many other people have a gun either." Could deter things?

Reminds me of the cold war, and as people who lived through those years will tell you, the world didn't end (Well, you probably figured that out by now Razz

), but the atmosphere was horrible.
So I gotta ask: Do shootouts happen so frikkin much in Texas that students have to have firearms? Keep in mind, it's a lot easier to enrage a person than it is to enrage a country.

Posted: Feb 21 2011 12:22 pm

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#[112]

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba324

Quote:

In an unpublished report, engineering statistician William Sturdevant found that concealed carry licensees had arrest rates far lower than the general population for every category of crime. For instance:

•Licensees were 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public - 127 per 100,000 population versus 730 per 100,000.
•Licensees were 14 times less likely to be arrested for nonviolent offenses than the general public - 386 per 100,000 population versus 5,212 per 100,000.
•Further, the general public is 1.4 times more likely to be arrested for murder than licensees [ see Figure I ], and no licensee had been arrested for negligent manslaughter.

They're not exactly giving these away to hotheads.

Atma wrote:

I understand the concept behind this. Especially for Texas.

"If someone is shooting at me, I can now shoot back."

It sorta makes sense to me, in the fact of, if someone is going to commit a violent act with a gun on school grounds, they're going to bring one if they're banned or not.

Maybe the thought of "Shit, I don't know how many other people have a gun either." Could deter things?

But mostly people like that don't give a shit anyway, and now it also arms people who get into a "Heat of the moment" fight and can draw a gun.

That is the onus of why they are considering this. Bear in mind that only 2.4% of the Texas population actually has a CHL, which again, is what the ability to carry on campus would be limited to. Shootouts do not happen often here, but the essential idea is that an armed society is a polite society. I don't think it's the best idea ever, and I would certainly not push for unrestricted carry like a few states have, but if they've passed the test and background check, let them do so.

Posted: Feb 21 2011 01:01 pm

Hey guys, the answer to lowering gun violence is regulation, not handing one out to every asshole on the street. Sure, those statistics are neat and all, but give everyone a gun and soon all it's going to take is a car back-firing for a bloody shoot out to occur.

2010 SLF Tag Champ Joined: Jun 07 2006 Posts: 12294

This is awesome.

Posted: Feb 21 2011 01:30 pm

I fully empathize with the arguments against this, but this quote stands out to me:

Quote:

But Derek Titus, a senior at Texas A&M who has a state license to carry a concealed handgun, said someone with a gun that day could have improved the chances of survival.

"Gun-free zones are shooting galleries for the mass murderers," Titus said. "We do not feel that we must rely on the police or security forces to defend our lives."

Posted: Feb 21 2011 02:05 pm

What's wrong with this? Why do you hope this is a joke?

Vaenamoenen wrote:

Ice2SeeYou wrote:

I don't really see what's wrong with college students being allowed to carry firearms

I suppose the question here is, does increasing the amount of firearms decrease gun violence. My logic says no.

Your logic needs to visit Canada then. They have a lot more guns than we do, and a lot less crime, particularly violent crime.

Joined: May 22 2008 Location: Goshen, VA Posts: 6544

Quote:

"Gun-free zones are shooting galleries for the mass murderers," Titus said. "We do not feel that we must rely on the police or security forces to defend our lives."

This.

Joined: Mar 18 2010 Location: Tuonela Posts: 299

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

Your logic needs to visit Canada then. They have a lot more guns than we do, and a lot less crime, particularly violent crime.

Not true according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership

Posted: Feb 21 2011 03:03 pm

I'm all for this, if it's well regulated.

Surely, guns licenses shouldn't be handed to any moron just for the sake of it (we know sometimes they are), so we can admit that these campuses will not be the stage of a bloodshed just because someone looked diferently at the other guy. And, at the same time, murderers will think twice before doing anything, just because they wouldn't know hou many students will fire back at them. The quote from Titus says everything.

I trully support a state where everyone has the right to carry his own gun (after being considered mentally stable for such a thing), and the right to be trained in it's use to just shoot any kind of house robber, stalker or such things that lurks in every corner.

Posted: Feb 21 2011 03:22 pm

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

What's wrong with this? Why do you hope this is a joke?

Vaenamoenen wrote:

Ice2SeeYou wrote:

I don't really see what's wrong with college students being allowed to carry firearms

I suppose the question here is, does increasing the amount of firearms decrease gun violence. My logic says no.

Your logic needs to visit Canada then. They have a lot more guns than we do, and a lot less crime, particularly violent crime.

whaaaa???????????

we have like no guns up here, just hippies, stoners and lumberjacks

But youre a pretty bright guy Jeebus so im going to assume that you were being sarcastic

Posted: Feb 21 2011 04:10 pm

Vaenamoenen wrote:

I suppose the question here is, does increasing the amount of firearms decrease gun violence. My logic says no.

The statistics disagree with your logic. I do follow your train of thought, however you have to take into account the fact that you will never be able to eliminate firearms, except from the law-abiding populace. It's a cliche I know, but it's true.

At any rate, what does the amount of gun violence matter? What concerns me is the amount of non-criminals victimized by criminals. If we add some more gun violence due to those victims shooting their attackers, I don't really care.

Take all the guns away, I'll still be carrying a shillelagh or something. I hate guns, I wish we still had to fight with hand weapons. But, guns exist and will not go away.

Joined: Oct 01 2009 Posts: 5316

As long as it's concealed, I don't see the issue. Someone trying to shoot up the place is probably less likely to get off enough shots before they themselves are gunned down.

Posted: Feb 21 2011 04:59 pm

No gun zones don't make any sense unless there's some sort of authority with guns present to enforce it at all times.

Title: The Self-Titler Joined: Aug 14 2010 Posts: 598

Has anyone ever lived in Texas? Visited friends in Texas? There is a stunning amount of weaponry all over the place. I may be more suprised that they haven't done this yet.

Posted: Feb 21 2011 07:13 pm

Sarge wrote:

Has anyone ever lived in Texas? Visited friends in Texas? There is a stunning amount of weaponry all over the place. I may be more suprised that they haven't done this yet.

I do live in Texas, and just about every person I know, regardless of political bent, owns a firearm of some variety. This change to the CHL law comes up just about every legislative session, but it's had difficulty getting through because the legislature only meets for 140 days every other year. It will likely get through this session because the republican party has a supermajority in both houses.

Posted: Feb 21 2011 09:13 pm

eh, im ok w/this. i just wish there was a law to get rid of the nutjobs.

Title: Doctor of Science Joined: Jun 11 2007 Posts: 188

Black Zarak wrote:

Hey guys, the answer to lowering gun violence is regulation, not handing one out to every asshole on the street. Sure, those statistics are neat and all, but give everyone a gun and soon all it's going to take is a car back-firing for a bloody shoot out to occur.

Yea, screw statistics and facts. MORE REGULATION!

edit: I agree that not every asshole should be carrying a gun but that's not who this law affects. It affects people who went through the legal red tape and necessary training/background check to get a concealed carry license.

Posted: Feb 21 2011 09:55 pm

bassguy252 wrote:

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

What's wrong with this? Why do you hope this is a joke?

Vaenamoenen wrote:

Ice2SeeYou wrote:

I don't really see what's wrong with college students being allowed to carry firearms

I suppose the question here is, does increasing the amount of firearms decrease gun violence. My logic says no.

Your logic needs to visit Canada then. They have a lot more guns than we do, and a lot less crime, particularly violent crime.

whaaaa???????????

we have like no guns up here, just hippies, stoners and lumberjacks

But youre a pretty bright guy Jeebus so im going to assume that you were being sarcastic

Wasn't being sarcastic. Either my source was incorrect or I misunderstood. You may not have guns, but can anyone buy a gun if they want? Maybe it was about gun laws, not gun ownership.

Posted: Feb 21 2011 10:18 pm

Guns are fiercly controlled in Canada, all handguns are either prohibited or severely restricted, if people wish to obtain a firearm they have to apply for a license which is easy to get but takes months and costs money.

Non restricted guns would be hunting rifles, sport rifles, air guns, shot guns basically long barelled guns that have a specific purpose.

all automatic weapons are prohibited in Canada and the only exception to this rule is if it was passed down to you from an ancestor, kinda wierd I actually never new that until now.

All guns must be registered... now of course this doesnt deter gun violence in Canada completely nor the possession of illegal firearms, people still smuggle them, sell them and acquire them however they can but our gun violence is significantly lower then almost all major countries

Trying to find a site for comparison is difficult as nobody has any "credible" sources, I suppose the UN would be the best place to look, I did notice overall though that Canada is usually in the mid to lower range of these charts. We prefer knives I guess when we kill people, so far 11 people have been murdered this year in Edmonton, which is pretty bad for us.