Except in Bahrain, which co-incidentally, has a US naval base. Nice to see that we, as a country, are really committed to the spread of democracy in the middle east by standing idly by while Bahraini police/military forces cracked down on and injured/killed a number of protesters. Mmm-hmm, loving that democracy.

GPFontaine wrote:

aeonic wrote: Except in Bahrain, which co-incidentally, has a US naval base. Nice to see that we, as a country, are really committed to the spread of democracy in the middle east by standing idly by while Bahraini police/military forces cracked down on and injured/killed a number of protesters. Mmm-hmm, loving that democracy. Right now there is finally a method that civilians can use to communicate and organize. Given this ability, they are making the choice to take back their countries and fight oppression. If we step in, then we end with what we have in Iraq, unrest and discontent. It isn't our job to install government even if we liberate a country. In the end the next most powerful group that kisses our asses gets in control and appeases us just enough to beat the crap out of their own population and repeat the cycle. By staying out and knowing that the people can address their own concerns, it is more likely that they will install their own new governments that serve the people. We may not have those new goverernments by the balls, but our relationships with them won't be as shady and hopefully the US can stop being the foreign presence that dictates to those with smaller armies.

That's some nice idealism there, but really, we both know that's not going to ever happen. The US, specificially the CIA, has a long history of propping up puppet dictators who abuse the piss out of their populaces. Don't forget that WE were the ones who armed the Taliban, and that Saddam Hussein was considered an anti-communist bulwark and an ally to the US in the 60's and 70's until he became a convenient scapegoat and an excuse to pump billions into the military-industrial complex while most top politicians played profiteer off of the situation. I'm not saying he was a nice guy, he was a terrible person, but really, if you go through the history of any country that's been a recipient of a US-backed regime change, things have not gone pretty for them. And if you think that it was the Egyptians alone who got Mubarak out of power, well, brother, I've got some land in the Everglades I'm looking to offload.

GPFontaine wrote:

You are agreeing with me then. Our involvement is not a good thing all the time. So, us staying back is a good thing. Of course the CIA is doing something one way or the other, they always seem to be active, but we aren't hearing about it... so there really isn't much we can or can't do other than realize they might be involved.

I agree only in the sense that we shouldn't be trying to liberate anyone. Hilary Rodham-Clinton-whatever just made a huge statement about freeing up electronic avenues for people to protest, organize and push for democratic reforms, but when Bahrain's people, 70% of whom are Shi'ite, want to organize and are in turn railroaded out by the government, there's crickets, not outrage. What I'm saying is if the US wants other countries to be democratic, as our leaders/politicians purport, we should be doing more, much more, to help them do so. I think that if we're going to come out and say we're going to bring democracy to places, we should put up and help them or shut up and stop making empty promises or affirmations. It's not something we should half-ass, which is exactly what we're doing. Now, the topic as to whether the average US citizen wants that to happen, that's a different animal altogether, but by now we're all painfully aware that what the citizens want and what government wants are often two radically different things.

I, for one, am all for shutting up and reverting to an isolationist stance on things, or at least global non-interference. It's not the US's job to be the cop of the world, but if we're going to act that way, we'd better be prepared for the consequences like a trillion + dollar war and losing the lives of some citizen-soldiers.

At this point, I think the topic needs to be expanded on what's going on in the whole Middle East. Anybody hoping that it sweeps westward and across the Atlantic?

GPFontaine wrote:

aeonic wrote: At this point, I think the topic needs to be expanded on what's going on in the whole Middle East. Anybody hoping that it sweeps westward and across the Atlantic? You want a wide scale protest and revolution in the US? Rethink it. Seriously. Shit sucks right now by comparison to yesteryear, but not even close to how other countries have it. Our country couldn't sustain an immediate swapping of governments without completely collapsing. We don't have the resources to sell off, we would have no external assistance, and our current lifestyles would cease to exist. We need reform, not revolution.

I never said I wanted it right here in the US, but God knows Mexico could use some of it, maybe even Venezuela. As for the US, I'd love to see wide-scale protests, yes. I'm kind of tired of being in a kleptocracy. That's a whole boatload of reform needed.

Double post, I know, but as an update, Libya's getting totally crazy, Bahrain's getting totally clamped down by it's police/military, and protests are starting to sweep Iraq (not that there'll be any coverage of that in the US, other than a note about the 'shoe tosser' of mid-2000's fame being arrested for inciting protests). Glad we've got the whole Mideast thing under control.

That and the fact that over half the country is in the hands of the opposition, Deadmau. Even Ghadafi's cousin turned his back. That guy's on borrowed time, but he's doing all the nasty stuff he can get away with in the meantime. Iraq, at this point, is what's really got my attention, though. I guess a ten year war wasn't really enough to make the people want what they deserve. Or maybe it was what pushed them over the edge.

Funny enough, it looks like Ghadafi finally took a page from Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/other war criminals and is now blaming Bin Laden.

GPFontaine wrote:

Wow, yeah Iraq has its hands full http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/24/AR2011022403117.html

No kidding. Aren't we (the US) still in Iraq training those "black clad security forces". Funny how we teach free expression and people's rights with one hand and train suppression units with the other. I'm surprised you actually found an article on it, I've found few and far between.