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San Francisco Moving to Ban Happy Meals


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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 01:09 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Alowishus wrote:
Dr. Jeebus wrote:
You keep saying separation of church and state, but since that's not actually in the constitution anywhere there'd be nothing to stop them from doing that.

Alowishus wrote:

I am not saying this isn't true but the government are clearly taking the next best course of action.

If parents won't take care of their kids health then they take away the incentive for buying the food.

Wrong. If parents won't take care of their kids, then the next best course of action is to take away their kids.


I disagree. I can't see children getting taken away because their parents buy them happy meals. It's not like the children aren't getting fed or are getting mistreated. It's simply poor judgement regarding their health. Also i rarely hear of children only getting fed Happy Meals.

Just because a parent gives their child happy meals doesn't mean they are getting seriously mistreated in other respects.

A child getting taken away from their parents just for that is a bit harsh and honestly just ridiculous.

Well they shouldn't be banning happy meals anyway. I'm just saying that if parents are so irresponsible that they can't properly raise their children, the solution isn't to hold their fucking hand via legislation to attempt to force them to do the right thing, it's to take their fucking kids away.

Syd Lexia wrote:
What the First Amendment says is that the government will not establish an official, compulsory national religion, nor will it do anything to prevent the free practice of religion.

The Amendment is a direct response to the British government of the time, where you either practiced the office state religion, which was the Church of England, or you were persecuted.

For the Founding Fathers, the First Amendment was about allowing people to practice Lutheranism vs. Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism vs. Judaism. But belief in God and belief in morality were unquestionably part of the America they wanted.

As for the question of whether the Constitution allows for the taxation of religion, absolutely not. In no uncertain terms, it says:
Quote:
prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Taxation is a form of tyranny. End of story.

The Constitution allows for taxation. I don't think they would right tyranny into The Constitution as something acceptable. Also, taxing religions doesn't prohibit the exercise of that religion. You aren't taxed for being a member of the religion, the religion is taxed based on collections it makes that aren't going to charity, as well as paying property tax.


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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 01:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Is there really a scenario where a child is getting a Happy Meal for dinner or lunch more than once or twice a week?

Um, yeah. If you honestly believe there's not, you're a retard. There are a lot of bad parents, and there are 5 year olds that way 200 pounds.


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Klimbatize
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 01:11 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Is there really a scenario where a child is getting a Happy Meal for dinner or lunch more than once or twice a week?

LOL, definitely. The number one 'vegetable' for children under the age of 5 in this country is the potato, via the french fry. Potato isn't really a good vegetable, as it has few redeeming nutrients for a young, growing body. I know you think that the obesity problem has been overblown or something in this country because you yourself are not fat from eating junk, but there's a definite problem. Kids are eating way too much junk, including fast food, because it's easy and cheap.

Do I think Happy Meals alone are to blame? Of course not. I doubt banning some toys is going to make much of a difference, either.


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aeonic
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 01:22 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Dr. Jeebus wrote:
Syd Lexia wrote:
Is there really a scenario where a child is getting a Happy Meal for dinner or lunch more than once or twice a week?

Um, yeah. If you honestly believe there's not, you're a retard. There are a lot of bad parents, and there are 5 year olds that way 200 pounds.


Jesus Christ, how is that possible? They'd have to be spherical! I don't even weigh that much. That's like 30 pounds more than me!


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SteelBallRun
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Joined: May 05 2010
PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 02:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Jesus Christ, how is that possible? They'd have to be spherical! I don't even weigh that much. That's like 30 pounds more than me!


They're actually the shape of a watermelon. A woman came into my work yesterday with her daughter. The daughter was probably 10 years old tops and had a large overhanging gut on her. It was awkward to say the least.
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GPFontaine
Joined: Dec 06 2007
Location: Connecticut
PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 02:14 pm Reply with quote Back to top

LeshLush wrote:
GPFontaine wrote:
LeshLush wrote:
GPFontaine wrote:
Dr. Jeebus wrote:
GPFontaine wrote:
Hacker wrote:
GPFontaine wrote:
I am still in favor of a fat tax. Allow people to eat whatever the fuck they want, but issue a tax for obesity.

Here is how I see it working....

I'm not sure if I agree with this. On one hand it's a drastic reform that would severely help our country.
But on the other it infringes on a persons right to life... Even if they are hanging onto it by a thread

How exactly does it infringe on someone's right to live? If they choose to be a fat fuck, they become one, they simply pay for it instead of me paying for it.

We should start taxing Mosques too. If you choose to be Muslim you can be, you simply pay for it. (You shouldn't be paying for either of these situations, which is the issue. If people were thrown to the wolves as they should be, you probably wouldn't give a shit at all)

I'm not sure the point you are making, but I do think that religions should not be tax exempt.

Once you start taxing religions, you have start figuring how to tax different religious institutes, because surely you're going to have to tax a nondenominational mega-church differently than you are the small congregation of a small Native American religion. Once you start making these decisions, you start bureaucratically creating separate fiscal relationships between the government and the various institutions of religion. Now what's happened to your separation of church and state?

Easy, tax them the same way you tax a corporation. Tax universities too.

The problem with that is that a corporation is a legally defined entity. To be a corporation, you have to feel paperwork with the government and meet certain requirements that are defined by the law. This levels the playing field between different types of corporations and allows the types of taxation you are referring to. Religions don't work that way. If we wanted to tax religions the same way we taxed corporations, we would have to come up with more rigorous definitions of what it means to be a religion. This would involve the government deciding what constitutes a taxable religion and what does not. Once again, no separation of Church and State.

So what you are saying is that to deal with the bullshit that exists we need to determine exactly what kind of bullshit it is, but then we can shovel that shit out of here. Yeah... it is worth the effort.



 
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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 02:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

There is absolutely no reason to tax religions.
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 02:38 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to tax religions.

Regardless of whether or not there's a reason to, it would certainly be Constitutional to do so.


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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 02:42 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Disagree. Your interpretation of the Constitution is way too fucking lax! Go be a federal judge out in California, you scumbag.
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aeonic
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 02:49 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Disagree. Your interpretation of the Constitution is way too fucking lax! Go be a federal judge out in California, you scumbag.

This... is why I joined these forums in the first place.


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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 02:51 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Disagree. Your interpretation of the Constitution is way too fucking lax! Go be a federal judge out in California, you scumbag.

My interpretation is the letter of the law! You're reading it how you want to read it, not reading what it literally says. You probably think it took more than seven 24 hour days for God to create the universe too.


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JonSnow
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 03:35 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
My interpretation is the letter of the law! You're reading it how you want to read it, not reading what it literally says. You probably think it took more than seven 24 hour days for God to create the universe too.


The constitution was designed to be flexible since any rigid system is bound to stunt growth and breed unfairness under certain conditions.

That said I'm not sure if it's unconstitutional to tax religions, though i understand why they do not. Such power for taxing people because they congregate under a like belief is probably unconstitutional. That's ridiculous and leaves so much room for abuse as a means of deciding what's acceptable and what's not. If a religion is for profit, they're running a business, then I'd contend you can tax that portion. But the portion where people are pooling money to use towards the spreading of their beleifs, or the execution of their beliefs in a not-for-profit manner. In this case I don't think that should be taxed.


Onto the kid issue. Ultimately while improving the diet is one thing, the largest thing we can do for kids at school is to encourage physical activity. Make the schools have all the kids run a mile everyday, that'll help with the problem. Have them keep track of each individual's time, the school can offer some benefit as you improve your time. That's how they really could impact this issue.

Secondly they could teach through math classes concepts of calorie in take and expenditure, and in chemistry and biology classses the proccess that goes on as you eat, how you form fat, and explicitly target fast foods such as McDonald's in hopes of encouraging the kids to eat healthy. Explain the connection between proper dieting and muscle building, bone strength, overall growth and development... How eating right can make you run faster, and be stronger. This would appeal to both boys and girls. Send literature home, that hopefully the parents can/will read as well.

Maybe in the PTA meetings or the Parent teacher conferences they can go over some of the content with the parents on what the school is teaching.

Then the rest is up to the parents, and even if they don't buy food so their kids can have a healthy meal, if you get them to run a mile 5 times a week, they're going to lose weight. That's what they do for Gym class, those who get done earlier get to run another mile.. j/k... get to play basketball.


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Blackout
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 03:48 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Is there really a scenario where a child is getting a Happy Meal for dinner or lunch more than once or twice a week?

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JonSnow
Joined: Nov 03 2006
PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 03:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

We all know that those kids are actually just little people, the one in the hat is 45, and his brother is even older at 67.


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LeshLush
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 03:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

Syd Lexia wrote:
What the First Amendment says is that the government will not establish an official, compulsory national religion, nor will it do anything to prevent the free practice of religion.

The Amendment is a direct response to the British government of the time, where you either practiced the office state religion, which was the Church of England, or you were persecuted.

For the Founding Fathers, the First Amendment was about allowing people to practice Lutheranism vs. Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism vs. Judaism. But belief in God and belief in morality were unquestionably part of the America they wanted.

As for the question of whether the Constitution allows for the taxation of religion, absolutely not. In no uncertain terms, it says:
Quote:
prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Taxation is a form of tyranny. End of story.

The Constitution allows for taxation. I don't think they would right tyranny into The Constitution as something acceptable. Also, taxing religions doesn't prohibit the exercise of that religion. You aren't taxed for being a member of the religion, the religion is taxed based on collections it makes that aren't going to charity, as well as paying property tax.

But each religion will have to be taxed differently. The process of establishing differently weighted fiscal relationships between the government and various religions, while not establishing a national religion, is a process that would necessarily amount to the government tacitly valuing some religions more than others.
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aeonic
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 03:52 pm Reply with quote Back to top

His stubby little arms look like overstuffed sausages. For a second, I thought that the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man had a child.


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Blackout
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 03:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

aeonic wrote:
His stubby little arms look like overstuffed sausages. For a second, I thought that the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man had a child.

Yeah I've seen so called parents roll these dough balls out on talk shows, and they just sit there and struggle to breath, I'm not in the best shape and could stand to lose some weight but god damn it I would never let a growing child endanger their health like that.



 
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 03:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Jeebus has been 100% correct in what he is saying about the Constitution in this thread. People need to read the Constitution, not rely on interpretations that they've heard or create their own based on their personal bias. I'm not saying that everything that everyone else is saying is wrong, but he's relying purely on the words written down in our highest law.

There is nothing that says we can't tax churches or religious organizations. I'm not saying we should, but you can't say it's unconstitutional to do so.


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JonSnow
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 03:56 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
But each religion will have to be taxed differently.


Therein lies one issue for huge abuse to be had, and secondly you really think we should tax people for organizing together under like belief? That fundamentally is what a religion is. I think that hinders free expression, and also opens the door for abuse. If the religion has a for profit component then I would agree you can tax that as you would a business.

Quote:
There is nothing that says we can't tax churches or religious organizations. I'm not saying we should, but you can't say it's unconstitutional to do so.


I personally don't care for the constitution much, for me it's a just a guide given to us by the best judgement of those in the past. That's how i view it. They could be wrong they could be right. I could see the line where it says it won't prevent the free practice of religion that taxing them would be in violation of that.


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aeonic
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 03:59 pm Reply with quote Back to top

LeshLush wrote:
Dr. Jeebus wrote:

Syd Lexia wrote:
What the First Amendment says is that the government will not establish an official, compulsory national religion, nor will it do anything to prevent the free practice of religion.

The Amendment is a direct response to the British government of the time, where you either practiced the office state religion, which was the Church of England, or you were persecuted.

For the Founding Fathers, the First Amendment was about allowing people to practice Lutheranism vs. Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism vs. Judaism. But belief in God and belief in morality were unquestionably part of the America they wanted.

As for the question of whether the Constitution allows for the taxation of religion, absolutely not. In no uncertain terms, it says:
Quote:
prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Taxation is a form of tyranny. End of story.

The Constitution allows for taxation. I don't think they would right tyranny into The Constitution as something acceptable. Also, taxing religions doesn't prohibit the exercise of that religion. You aren't taxed for being a member of the religion, the religion is taxed based on collections it makes that aren't going to charity, as well as paying property tax.

But each religion will have to be taxed differently. The process of establishing differently weighted fiscal relationships between the government and various religions, while not establishing a national religion, is a process that would necessarily amount to the government tacitly valuing some religions more than others.


Why on Earth would you think that? If there's a Unitarian church and an Episcopalean church that make the same amount of contributions, they'd be in the same bracket. Just like my co-workers are in the same bracket that I am, and therefore are taxed the same, that's what would happen. Otherwise, they'd have a case against the government, but not otherwise. Putting a tax on earned income doesn't prevent people from going into a church and praying. I'm religious and a Church of Christ member, but I'm all for taxing churches too.


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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 04:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

LeshLush wrote:

But each religion will have to be taxed differently.

WHY? You keep saying this, but it makes no sense. If different religions are taxed differently, there would be only ONE basis for this decision: how much money they make. If the taxes applied are progressive taxes and not a flat tax, the rate changes based on what they're bringing in as "profit" and has NOTHING to do with what the religion believes.


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JonSnow
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 04:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
WHY? You keep saying this, but it makes no sense. If different religions are taxed differently, there would be only ONE basis for this decision: how much money they make. If the taxes applied are progressive taxes and not a flat tax, the rate changes based on what they're bringing in as "profit" and has NOTHING to do with what the religion believes.


Either way, whether all religions are taxed under a uniform system or not, that taxing them is dangerous and deadly to our country. That it's a abuse of people's expression. I just don't even think the tax makes sense. It's arguably unconstitutional, if you view it as hindering, which i think it is. As long as it's not for profit activities, i see no reason to tax, and I think that'd be the more legitimate issue to discuss first, if we should tax, before discussing how taxes should be done.


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aeonic
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 04:19 pm Reply with quote Back to top

JonSnow wrote:
Quote:
WHY? You keep saying this, but it makes no sense. If different religions are taxed differently, there would be only ONE basis for this decision: how much money they make. If the taxes applied are progressive taxes and not a flat tax, the rate changes based on what they're bringing in as "profit" and has NOTHING to do with what the religion believes.


Either way, whether all religions are taxed under a uniform system or not, that it's dangerous and deadly to our country. That it's a abuse of people's expression. I just don't even think the tax makes sense. It's arguably unconstitutional, if you view it as hindering, which i think it is. As long as it's not for profit activities, i see no reason to tax, and I think that'd be the more legitimate issue to discuss first, if we should tax, before discussing how taxes should be done.


How is it abusing people's expression? Nobody's saying, "You can't be Muslim" or "You can't worship Satan". That's absurd to make that sort of leap. A lot of people use religious non-profits as a tax shelter, and some of the megachurches bring in millions every year and don't pay tax on one cent of it. If I have to pay taxes, why don't they? It's not going to keep people from being able to go and worship, and in the case of very poor churches, the amount of tax will be small enough for them to survive or possibly not even have to pay if it falls under a certain amount. If a church hosts a bake sale, that's a for-profit activity, especially if said church uses funds for, say, a political campaign (check out Prop 8 if you think churches didn't toss millions into that bucket).


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JonSnow
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 04:30 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I think you're right there are people abusing it, and manipulating people probably even to beliefs they don't actually believe, like all those Christian t.v. evangelicals. My issue comes in the potential for abuse by the government, if the government wants to stop certain new religions from coming up this would open that possibiilty. Secondly, the notion of taxing people for congregating together under like belief. I disagree with. I think they should be able to use their resources untaxed. Maybe a structural evaluation to make sure they actually are non-for profit is in order. The cases you are citing, I wish there was someway to shut them down. It sickens me.

In general, in the purest spirit and form that a religion ought take and operate under, it should not be taxed. If we have a way to establish that structure is being maintained by the religious group that shouldn't be taxed.


One issue I have is getting tax ride-offs for donating to Churces, I don't like that.

I'll add one more thing that might be able to address your issue. If anyone is taking the donations of their church for personal use, regardless why, that should be taxed as taxable income.

If they live off the donations they make from the church and say they keep 40k for themselves annually and the rest goes back into the congregation, i think that 40k should be taxed, as an income, because it is exactly that... it's no different than getting paid at a job. But the money pooled together to express their beliefs and causes should not be taxed.


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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Aug 18 2010 04:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

JonSnow wrote:
Quote:
WHY? You keep saying this, but it makes no sense. If different religions are taxed differently, there would be only ONE basis for this decision: how much money they make. If the taxes applied are progressive taxes and not a flat tax, the rate changes based on what they're bringing in as "profit" and has NOTHING to do with what the religion believes.


Either way, whether all religions are taxed under a uniform system or not, that taxing them is dangerous and deadly to our country. That it's a abuse of people's expression. I just don't even think the tax makes sense. It's arguably unconstitutional, if you view it as hindering, which i think it is. As long as it's not for profit activities, i see no reason to tax, and I think that'd be the more legitimate issue to discuss first, if we should tax, before discussing how taxes should be done.

How is taxing an organization for owning property dangerous and deadly and an abuse of people's expression?


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