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tomrussell
Title: Chief Bottle -Washer
Joined: Mar 11 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 49
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My real-life friend "Rantasmo" has been doing a series of video essays about representations of homosexuality in the media called Needs More Gay. This episode is about video games, and so I thought I'd share it to see what discussion it might spark.
Link: http://blip.tv/file/3993224
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Mr Takosuke
Title: :bell:
Joined: Jun 30 2010
Location: Whore Island
Posts: 180
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Spanish Meatloaf
Title: Denim Clad Road Warrior
Joined: Feb 24 2010
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 522
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Ballad of gay tony, Beautiful Katamari... that's all I've got. So I guess you're right.
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Lady_Satine
Title: Head of Lexian R&D
Joined: Oct 15 2005
Location: Metro area, Georgia
Posts: 7287
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www.gaygamer.net
"For boys who like boys with joysticks and girls who like girls with rumble pads."
That is all.
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 "Life is a waste of time. Time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!" |
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
Posts: 2515
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I haven't watched the video yet but i pose this..
What purpose would homosexuality serve in video games?
It depends sort of the implications and the level that it would be operating on.
Let's take two scenarios.
Let's say i play Doom. Doom guy is pretty much the only character in the game (excluding the demons/hell spawn and i don't want to think about a kinky relationship with them). When i play this game i don't assume that he has some sort of sexuality. Also why would it matter if he was straight or gay. It just wouldn't.
I can appreciate that it's bringing more awareness of homosexuality but is it really needed?
Like think of Harry Potter when Rowling was like "Oh by the way, Dumbledores gay."
That may be slightly different as it was sort of tacked on at the end and it sort of came out of nowhere.
There were two responses to this development:
1.That it doesn't make you think any differently about his character, it's not like he made advances on people or anything in the book, there's no real reason for it and this is what i mean regarding doom guy. It isn't important.
2. Outrage. People who dislike homosexuals will not like this and this means they may not buy books with homosexuals, protest etc.
This is a pretty major point here.
Just because there is a homosexual character doesn't mean people will be sympathetic or like homosexal people.
Consider this logic, in this case this is what i presume people who want homosexuality to be in video games think:
Player likes Character
Player finds out Character is gay
Player thinks, hey if like said Character and he is gay, i like gay people.
Player now likes homosexuals
I don't need to emphasise this anymore. Just because there is a homosexual character in game, it doesn't mean people who are anti-homosexual will turn around and accept homosexuals.
What would most likely happen is:
Player likes Character
Player finds out Character is gay
Player doesn't like said character anymore
For most people they won't even care that he is gay (so the point of making him gay is pointless) or in this case of extremists they will be like "OH MY GOD HE IS GAY, I HATE HIM NOW"
The other scenario is that there are multiple characters and characters having relationships.
This is different to the other scenario, that there could be gay people having relationships. In this case it would probably depend on how it's written and if homosexuals are being stereotyped or not (i don't stereotype).
E.g. Pick any action game and make the protaganist gay. Would the game work if i took the stereotypical approach (which i don't endorse) that he was a "poofter" and extremely flamboyant. Would this fit in with a sort of hardened action persona? No, it would look like satire...
and the counter to this is the dumbledore thing, if he is gay, why does it matter?
Relationships in this way is the same. Say Niko Bellic (even though they are related, i can't think of another example) was in a relationship with Roman. It isn't really relevant, though that is probably because the story isn't written that way.
If a story was written with homosexual characters, i wouldn't see the problem. Though how it was portrayed could be problematic. If it's just a "oh by the way, i am gay" it wouldn't matter (or would it..? I'm sure there would be SOME people who wouldn't play a game cause the character was gay), if it's part of a story then at least it's relevant, though i can't really think of a scenario in a game that being gay or for that matter straight would be relevant.
TL;DR
I don't see how sexuality in games is important or would really fit in a game and if it was in a game in what scenario would it be relevant?
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Lady_Satine
Title: Head of Lexian R&D
Joined: Oct 15 2005
Location: Metro area, Georgia
Posts: 7287
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Originally, the male Shepherd could start a romance with Kaiden in Mass Effect, but they scrapped that. Personally I would've liked to have that, maybe as some free DLC.
Playing Persona 4, my personal preference is having Naoto's as the main character's lover. As far as I'm aware, very few if any people on these forums has played the game, so I'll sum her up. Initially transsexual, she poses as a boy because she grew up reading detective novels as well as being descended from a prestigious family of detectives; women aren't regarded as coolly or as respectibly as a man in the same position. Despite the issue of her being 15 and having solved several cases, when she faces her Shadow self, her dark side, she realizes that although the issue of her age would eventually go away she could never become a man.
My short responce, I understand guys (mostly) and certain types of aware parents wouldn't be cool with homosexual characters (unless they were lesbians...such double standards). However, in this day and age I wouldn't mind having homosexual options as DLC, though I'm just thinking in the realm of RPGs (although I've heard more than one theory that John Madden might be heavily closeted, but that's more for a Sports thread than anything).
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 "Life is a waste of time. Time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!" |
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tolucalakevictims
Title: The Unbeliever
Joined: Jul 01 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 24
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im pretty sure i wouldnt spend microsoft points on making my character have a homosexual relationship with another character.
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"And He was asking him, "What is thy name?" And he said to Him, "My name is Legion; for we are many." |
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LordHuffnPuff
Title: Mahna Mahna
Joined: Jan 12 2009
Location: Fairyland
Posts: 571
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In Dragon Age, if you play a male warden you can sleep with Zevran. Female wardens can sleep with Leliana.
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 More information may be found here. |
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tomrussell
Title: Chief Bottle -Washer
Joined: Mar 11 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 49
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Alowishus,
Well, first of all, there's a difference between sexuality and sex. While you're correct that Doom Guy is pretty asexual, Mario (for example) is an obviously heterosexual protagonist. What I think he's saying isn't that he necessarily wants lots of gay sex inserted into video games-- though he points out that one of the BioWare RPGs give you lady-on-lady kissing but fade out before the man-on-man liplock-- but that there should be more homosexual characters, just as there should be more non-white characters, more female characters, et cetera.
So I don't think his point is so much, where can I see Mario and Sonic going at it, but rather, why hasn't there been a gay Mario. Or a gay Master Chef, for that matter.
And yes, the controversy that would be brought to bear by fuckwits like Jack Thompson is of course a very real reason why that really hasn't happened yet. And from a business stand-point, I certainly understand that. But from the point-of-view of video-games-are-an-art-form/cultural-product, I don't really think what the Jack Thompsons of the world have to say is worth considering. At the very least, I'm surprised that (to the best of my knowledge) there haven't been a whole lot of indie or freeware games with gay heroes.
Quote: |
E.g. Pick any action game and make the protaganist gay. Would the game work if i took the stereotypical approach (which i don't endorse) that he was a "poofter" and extremely flamboyant. Would this fit in with a sort of hardened action persona? No, it would look like satire... |
Well, that's actually one of the major points he brought up in the vid
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I haven't watched the video yet but i pose this.. |
Oh.
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If a story was written with homosexual characters, i wouldn't see the problem. Though how it was portrayed could be problematic. If it's just a "oh by the way, i am gay" it wouldn't matter (or would it..? I'm sure there would be SOME people who wouldn't play a game cause the character was gay), if it's part of a story then at least it's relevant, though i can't really think of a scenario in a game that being gay or for that matter straight would be relevant. |
Well, again, Mario, Double Dragon, Braid, Duke Nukem, and a whole host of other games are dependent, from a story point of view, on your character being straight. (You can argue, I guess, that Mario is just saving the Princess out of the goodness of his heart, but, let's be honest here: he's clearly after that kiss on the nose.)
==Tom
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Andrew Man
Title: Is a Funklord
Joined: Jan 30 2007
Location: Annandale, VA
Posts: 5603
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I feel that this will come up more often as it becomes even more common place and acceptable in our culture.
I know several gaymers.
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 My Muzaks! CHECK IT OUT!!!
http://www.facebook.com/hellodharmaband
3DS is very good, and Wii U!
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Lady_Satine
Title: Head of Lexian R&D
Joined: Oct 15 2005
Location: Metro area, Georgia
Posts: 7287
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tolucalakevictims wrote: |
im pretty sure i wouldnt spend microsoft points on making my character have a homosexual relationship with another character. |
That's why I'd suggest making it free or really cheap.
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Blackout
Title: Captain Oblivious
Joined: Sep 01 2007
Location: That Rainy State
Posts: 10376
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I wouldn't care if a game's protagonist was gay, but I think this is being far too over-analyzed, who really cares what sexual orientation a character in a game has? I'm playing games to escape stupid real world hot button topics, stomp on goombas, zoom around collecting rings, avoiding the crapping of pants, shooting demons with a shotgun. I mean unless I'm playing some stupid hentai game I don't see how the protagonist's ( or really any of the characters) totally imaginary sexual preferences matter, I think people are taking things way too seriously, do you worry about Solid Snake's political leanings when playing? Or if Megaman is a vegan? Fuck no you don't, get back to having fun.
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username
Title: owner of a lonely heart
Joined: Jul 06 2007
Location: phoenix, az usa
Posts: 16135
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I'm with blackout on this one. To me it's a non-issue til someone makes it an issue.
If they said captain falcon was gay, I wouldn't stop maining him in smash bros
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Klimbatize wrote: |
I'll eat a turkey sandwich while blowing my load |
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Blackout
Title: Captain Oblivious
Joined: Sep 01 2007
Location: That Rainy State
Posts: 10376
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username wrote: |
I'm with blackout on this one. To me it's a non-issue til someone makes it an issue.
If they said captain falcon was gay, I wouldn't stop maining him in smash bros |
He is gay, the Falcon Punch is just the homosexual version of the Donkey Punch. Nintendo is very progressive.
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JonSnow
Joined: Nov 03 2006
Posts: 763
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Why don't you comment on your own friends work.. show him some support. I think Fables allowed for gay relationships. I think just due to the proportion of straights to gays, that straight is going to be the more common, but I can definitely see more gay main/prominent characters in the future. If i ever write a fantasy novel, i'll make sure to have a ripped to amazing, hung to hell gay man in there.
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 The One Truth Will Prevail
Brawl Code: 1805-1876-7506 |
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Blackout
Title: Captain Oblivious
Joined: Sep 01 2007
Location: That Rainy State
Posts: 10376
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tomrussell
Title: Chief Bottle -Washer
Joined: Mar 11 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 49
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JonSnow wrote: |
Why don't you comment on your own friends work.. show him some support. |
Um, I think I kinda did there a little when I responded earlier to Alowishus.
But I'll certainly be giving him some direct feedback when he comes over later today for D&D.
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mechafuhrer
Title: General jackass
Joined: Jul 29 2010
Posts: 182
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Wait, so Rowling just randomly said "Dumbledore's gay"? Was she drunk or something? Or did you just make that up as an example?
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 Mickey mouse will consume you. |
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
Posts: 2515
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mechafuhrer wrote: |
Wait, so Rowling just randomly said "Dumbledore's gay"? Was she drunk or something? Or did you just make that up as an example? |
Oh it's true.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7053982.stm
Quote: |
Last Updated: Saturday, 20 October 2007, 12:59 GMT 13:59 UK
JK Rowling outs Dumbledore as gay
Harry Potter author JK Rowling has revealed that one of her characters, Hogwarts school headmaster Albus Dumbledore, is gay.
She made her revelation to a packed house in New York's Carnegie Hall on Friday, as part of her US book tour.
She took audience questions and was asked if Dumbledore found "true love".
"Dumbledore is gay," she said, adding he was smitten with rival Gellert Grindelwald, who he beat in a battle between good and bad wizards long ago.
The audience gasped, then applauded. "I would have told you earlier if I knew it would make you so happy," she said.
"Falling in love can blind us to an extent," she added, saying Dumbledore was "horribly, terribly let down" and his love for Grindelwald was his "great tragedy".
"Oh, my god," Rowling, 42, concluded with a laugh, "the fan fiction".
JK Rowling
Rowling said her books are a "prolonged argument for tolerance"
Fan sites have long speculated on Dumbledore's sexuality as he was known for having a mysterious, troubled past.
Rowling told the audience that while working on the planned sixth Potter film, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, she saw the script carried a reference to a girl who was once of interest to Dumbledore.
She said she ensured director David Yates was made aware of the truth about her character.
Gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell welcomed the news about Dumbledore and said: "It's good that children's literature includes the reality of gay people, since we exist in every society.
"But I am disappointed that she did not make Dumbledore's sexuality explicit in the Harry Potter book. Making it obvious would have sent a much more powerful message of understanding and acceptance."
And a spokesman for gay rights group Stonewall added: "It's great that JK has said this. It shows that there's no limit to what gay and lesbian people can do, even being a wizard headmaster."
Daniel Radcliffe in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Daniel Radcliffe plays Harry Potter in the films
Rowling also did a brief reading from the seventh book in her best-selling series, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, as part of her Open Book Tour of the US - her first there for seven years.
She said she regarded her novels as a "prolonged argument for tolerance" and urged her fans to "question authority".
But she added that not everyone likes her work. Christian groups have alleged the books promote witchcraft. The author said her revelation about Dumbledore would give them one more reason.
The seventh Potter book broke sales records on both sides of the Atlantic when it was published in July, selling 11 million copies in 24 hours.
The fifth film adaptation of the series, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix was released this summer. Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince is due for release late next year. |
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AtmanRyu
Title: The Wandering Dragon
Joined: Jun 25 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 986
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Video Games need more latinos! Latinos are highly underrepresented by the white man and as a Latino gamer myself I demand my race to be properly represented as such!
*****
Sarcasm aside, overall gaming experience shouldn't be defined by sexual preference or race. One of the points discussed in character design is that if you're going to give a character a particular trait, it has to have it for a reason, otherwise you shouldn't focus on that trait for the sake of having it.
That is, is the fact that John Doe is gay important to the plot in any way? Will it have a dramatic or comedic effect in any way? If so, play it up; if not, it shouldn't overshadow the important traits your character will have.
Besides, if referring to games in which the player can create their own character, they're completely free to treat it as such, but again begs the question if the plot should bend backwards for you just because you have a gay character.
But yeah, if having more gay characters that important, here's an idea: Design games for such by gay game designers. After all, they should know better, right?
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JonSnow
Joined: Nov 03 2006
Posts: 763
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Quote: |
Um, I think I kinda did there a little when I responded earlier to Alowishus. Smile
But I'll certainly be giving him some direct feedback when he comes over later today for D&D. |
A lot of D&D players around here.. I make any D&D game a million times more fun. Barbarians FTW!!! I name my characters Conan to be completely original.
I meant on the comment section of the page the video you linked to us was posted on.
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 The One Truth Will Prevail
Brawl Code: 1805-1876-7506 |
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tolucalakevictims
Title: The Unbeliever
Joined: Jul 01 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 24
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i read an interview with Stephen R Donaldson about the chronicles of Thomas Covenant and he was asked why there were my gay characters in the land.
He simply said "because it didnt add to the story in anyway if there were gays or not".
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"And He was asking him, "What is thy name?" And he said to Him, "My name is Legion; for we are many." |
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username
Title: owner of a lonely heart
Joined: Jul 06 2007
Location: phoenix, az usa
Posts: 16135
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Well, speedy gonzales did have his own game on the snes. And guerilla war was originally called Che in japan.
But we do need a pancho villa game.
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Klimbatize wrote: |
I'll eat a turkey sandwich while blowing my load |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24886
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tomrussell
Title: Chief Bottle -Washer
Joined: Mar 11 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 49
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AtmanRyu wrote: |
One of the points discussed in character design is that if you're going to give a character a particular trait, it has to have it for a reason, otherwise you shouldn't focus on that trait for the sake of having it. |
Very true. Though I believe it was Kurt Busiek who phrased it the other way, talking about superhero comics-- that unless there's a very good reason for a hero to be male, white, and straight, they shouldn't be. That is: male-white-straight is a cultural default; it's what's considered the "norm" that other characters deviate from instead of just one of many possible norms. I don't think he means that those characters should necessarily be defined by their traits; it's just that if a character is meant to be normal or unimportant, why not change one of those traits in the male-white-straight trifecta?
Look at, for example, Spider-Man vs. Luke Cage; Luke Cage is defined in many ways by his heritage. If he was suddenly a white guy, it would completely change the context the character is coming from. But Spider-Man, though he is white, isn't defined by being white-- that's why I had no problem when Donald Glover was (however half-jokingly) courting the part. Nothing crucial to the character is particularly lost by changing his race-- whereas a female Spider-Man would not be the same character, as many of the best Spider-Man stories deal in some way with what it means to be a man.
So, I don't know if there necessarily has to be a reason for a character to be gay, vegan, or what-ever-the-hell, especially in a game that's not narratively focused; it might not add anything, other than the simple acknowledgment that those things too are normal. (Well, except for being a vegan.)
I do think there's a point where wanting to have more diversity in our video game heroes might tip over into that excruciating kind of pop-cultural affirmative action that, no matter how well intentioned, just seems kinda ridiculous (I know I wasn't the only one who scoffed at that hideous new Ghostbusters cartoon) and kinda offensive (Apache Chief from the Superfriends).
And while I'm a resolutely and happy heterosexual white male, I think I might just begin working a run-n-gun action game with a standard-issue bad-ass protagonist who just happens to be on a mission to save his boyfriend.
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