SydLexia.com - The Forums :: View topic - Versus: Mindless vs Thought provoking + CGI vs hand Drawn

Joined: Aug 26 2007 Posts: 2752

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/podcasts/tranmission-awesome/11707-taep33

I was at that guy with the glasses and listened to the latest podcast 'Transmission Awesome' and the host towards the end (after the awesome blog segment) talk about two forum topics that have come up:

Mindless Movies Vs Thought Provoking and CGI Animation VS the traditional Cell Animation.

My thoughts on these topics:

I like any average person can enjoy a popcorn movie but here is my beef with modern movies, there are too many mindless moves, in fact it has become the norm rather then having a decent balance between the explosion movies and the 'intellectual' movies. As much as it pains me to say it, I will agree with Coldguy that District 9 is overrated but i see the argument as it was one of the few if not the only movie to attempt being thought provoking this year (please prove me wrong otherwise). Lets face it, many scifis movies from the 80s would kick District 9's ass in a show down because back then that was the fad, to make thought provocking scifis. While i really have nothing against popcorn flicks i do have a lot against the genre if it is all hollywood pushes out.

As for CGI, i think many of you know my stance on this topic but here is the abridge gist: It's overrated, overused and i'm sick of it. The problem I have is people look apon tradition animation with contempt because it evolved into a medium for children therefore it cannot be taken seriously. However Japan has proven that drawn animation can be used as a way to tell a story. CGI has become the fad and people look at it with wonder because it still is in it's youth. Here is my grip though, it has gotten old, stagnant and frankly kids will love both CGI and hand Drawn animation. We should bring back drawn animation to give more veriaty to the animation media before CGI itself becomes rechid. Yes, the CGI hater just used 'bring back hand drawn so CGI don't become crap' argument.

Watch the podcast (at least the ending segment) and let me know what your stance on these arguments are.

Gallery 2 · Posted: Sep 20 2009 09:05 pm

I was actually reading on a book about the subject and both arguments can be summarized as follows:

It's all about telling a good story.

Whether the movie has a revolutionizing plot never seen before that not even cynics can predict the ending, or a movie with the most expensive and up-to-date special effects and the hottest babes available, none of this is worth crap if the story itself isn't told right.

This is the one thing most people don't get:

Pretentious and elitist =/= Thought provoking
Mindless destruction =/= Entertaining

There has to be a balance in all of this: A popcorn movie can have its explosions and whatnot if there's a solid story supporting it. A thought provoking movie can be endearing if it doesn't stick to what would amount to Ben Stein reciting a phone book and try to embellish it some.

Since we're talking about NC, refer to his list of top 20 movies that he likes most: http://www.thatguywiththeglasses.com/component/content/article/40-front-page-scroller/11657-dougs-top-20-favorite-movies

Half of them aren't exactly the Holy Grail of cinematics; however, he mentions them for one particular reason: They left an impression on him, all because they achieved one goal: Telling a good story.

To quote:

"Given the choice between trivial material brilliantly told versus profound material badly told, an audience will always choose the trivial told brilliantly. Master storytellers know how to squeeze life out of the least trivial of things, while poor storytellers reduce the profound to the banal. You may have the insight of a Buddha, but if you cannot tell story, your ideas turn dry as chalk."

As for CGI vs handdrawn, I've talked with this with a friend who's an animator and we pretty much agree on this: They're tools.

Again referring to the statement above, you simply can't rely on CGI as a crutch; it's just another tool that you use to tell a story. On the other hand, you simply can't get obsessive about hand drawn animation: As beautiful as it may be, it still have its limits and frankly there are things that CGI can pull better in contrast to hand drawn. In fact, a good to great director will use both if he must have to, leading to excellent results.

That's the mistake Disney did during Michael Eisner's tyranny: Thinking that "CGI = PROFIT!!!". They're finally on the road to mend this by allowing future directors the right to choose which tools will be most suitable to tell their stories and bringing hand drawn animation once more into the picture.

I can say Pixar (and arguably Dreamworks) actually get it. In fact, Pixar prides itself in not relying on shortcuts or similar things in their movies, honoring the process hand drawn animation uses. Other companies trying to copy this don't, hence the overload of mediocre or just plain bad CGI movies.

P.S.

Goddamn, even on podcast, I can't stand Angry Joe...

Joined: Aug 26 2007 Posts: 2752

You pretty much deliver a good argument, Ryu. CGI can be used to tell a good story and Pixar (in my eyes) has become the leader in uses CGI to tell the story and not simple use CGI as a cash cow.

What pisses me off is the fads hollywood goes through, like the big musical numbers, the disaster movie, the comedies about current movies or the current trend of reformating cartoons from the 1980s. I'm not saying this is all bad and there are a few gems that birth from the genres but in order to find those gems people have to dig deep in shit before actually finding a classic. The fads get way to stale and old before there time passes.

The key is to wait the fad out, soon there will be a new fad for hollywood to leech off of.

And this is going to sound really weird but i have grown to accept the Bay Transformer movies . Why, one name, Joel Schumacher. If Joel didn't direct the crappiest Batman movie ever and showed the world what not to do with Batman, we would not have gotten The Dark Knight.

Hollywood is too greedy to care right now and it is way too greedy to let the franchise rest in peace. Maybe down the road, the Transformers will get the same stellar treatment like the Caped Crusader.

EDIT: And yah, Joe is some of reason i listen to this podcast, those guys just love to diss on him.

Gallery 2 · Posted: Sep 21 2009 07:27 pm

It's simply the fact that Joe thinks the whole reason to watch a movie is to oogle an otherwise average woman.

Frankly, that does NOT make you a man; it makes you a moron.

Why?

Because you spent $20 on something that you can simply do by free by checking the Internet.

Joined: Aug 26 2007 Posts: 2752

AtmanRyu wrote:

It's simply the fact that Joe thinks the whole reason to watch a movie is to oogle an otherwise average woman.

Frankly, that does NOT make you a man; it makes you a moron.

Why?

Because you spent $20 on something that you can simply do by free by checking the Internet.

+ i fell into that trap with Sandra Bullock and . . . fucking Hangmen. That movie made me a snark and not once in that 'Rated R' flick did it have any boobs. There was even a female stripper assassian and she never took her work clothes off. Just a tie and stockings.

I could go on forever about Joe and that's what bugs me the most about him. We live in a day and age where even socially retarded nerds can see chicks naked. Seriously, do people even take that Avenue Q song to heart, it's actually quite true. Hell, Joe is famous because of the internet you would figure he would take advantage of such a fact. I mean think about it, we can see Anne Hathway, Scarlet Johanson or any other actress in the nude without even seen the movie they are naked in. I'm going to stop now, . . . Twisted Evil

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

As far as CGI vs. hand-drawn goes, it really matters on what's being made. Toy Story is over ten years old now, and it, like every other Pixar film is very enjoyable compared to the average CGI turd from Dreamworks because the writing is top-notch, the characters were well-voiced, the animation and art style were visually arresting, and the world was ripe for escapism and fantasy, which are the essential ingredients in any child movie, whether it's drawn on paper or a computer.

Posted: Sep 22 2009 04:44 pm

I wish people would just go back to stop-motion animation (or Suitmation even) and only use computers to fix where they've screwed up. CGI is realistic to the point of being mundane. Stop-motion has a cryptic, primal quality to it that nothing else can match special effects-wise. Even if they did that I still probably wouldn't like modern movies unless they got rid of the hyperactive camera work , could come up with decent plots (without plagiarizing), and went back to black-and-white cinematography.

Hand-drawn stuff is pretty good, too, as long as it's not "anime". I loathe that stuff.

Gallery 2 · Posted: Sep 22 2009 05:51 pm

asbestos_pie wrote:

I wish people would just go back to stop-motion animation (or Suitmation even) and only use computers to fix where they've screwed up. CGI is realistic to the point of being mundane. Stop-motion has a cryptic, primal quality to it that nothing else can match special effects-wise. Even if they did that I still probably wouldn't like modern movies unless they got rid of the hyperactive camera work , could come up with decent plots (without plagiarizing), and went back to black-and-white cinematography.

You haven't seen Coraline, have you?

And:

asbestos_pie wrote:

Hand-drawn stuff is pretty good, too, as long as it's not "anime". I loathe that stuff.

That's just plain hating.

Title: Titlating Joined: Dec 17 2007 Posts: 5042

Hating anime as a whole is pretty closed minded.

Posted: Sep 22 2009 09:43 pm

Toy Story is one of my favorite childhood movies, so I have absolutely no reason to have any animosity towards CGI in general, it's just Dreamworks.

Posted: Oct 10 2009 02:37 pm

AtmanRyu wrote:

asbestos_pie wrote:

I wish people would just go back to stop-motion animation (or Suitmation even) and only use computers to fix where they've screwed up. CGI is realistic to the point of being mundane. Stop-motion has a cryptic, primal quality to it that nothing else can match special effects-wise. Even if they did that I still probably wouldn't like modern movies unless they got rid of the hyperactive camera work , could come up with decent plots (without plagiarizing), and went back to black-and-white cinematography.

You haven't seen Coraline, have you?

And:

asbestos_pie wrote:

Hand-drawn stuff is pretty good, too, as long as it's not "anime". I loathe that stuff.

That's just plain hating.

I like the book of Fantastic Mr. Fox, but the movie but it doesn't look like the sort of thing I'd be into. I looked at Coraline, too, with the same reaction. I'm more into model animation specifically.

I really wanted to like Japanimation, but I can't stand it. The ugly-ass animation and melodramatic voice-acting scare me away. I really like Ralph Bakshi's Wizards which has the bad voice-acting, but the awesome rotoscoping more than makes up for it.

Gallery 2 · Posted: Oct 10 2009 03:09 pm

asbestos_pie wrote:

I really wanted to like Japanimation, but I can't stand it. The ugly-ass animation and melodramatic voice-acting scare me away.

Ok, you obviously been looking at the wrong places:

Look, I admit there are horrible anime out there. The problem is that you're labeling them all under one category, and that's just plain ignorant.

It's just as bad as saying that american cartoons have ugly-ass animation, when the only one you seen was Squidbillies...

Posted: Oct 10 2009 03:45 pm

Besides anything from Pixar and the occasional other hit, I prefer hand drawn... for days, man.

asbestos_pie wrote:

I really wanted to like Japanimation, but I can't stand it. The ugly-ass animation and melodramatic voice-acting scare me away.

a. what the fuck did you watch, then?

b. this is the kind of impression one gets after watching too many bad english dubs... just saying. if you've watched subs-only, then that's just the Japanese language for you.

Joined: Oct 01 2009 Posts: 5316

CGI vs. hand drawn to me comes down to the feel of the story. I saw Toy Story in the theater when I was in 4th grade and was absolutely blown away. It seemed like every few years Pixar was putting out a new CGI movie for Disney and at first it was fine, but now everything I see that comes out has the exact same look and same feel to a movie. They're completely zany, all the characters are established as over the top and such. And as far as "kid's movies" feel, every movie seems to include farting and the use of the word "butt".

I know that seems like a weird thing to complain about, but it seems like these movies are made for the ADD kids. When I was growing up, there was still a sense of innocence of such, sure I could get "butt" jokes from Ren and Stimpy, but most full feature movies I grew up with such as "The Fox and the Hound" and "An American Tail" simply dealt with compelling stories that didn't have to offer zany comedy every few seconds but still kept you entertained.

But I guess if they rather make movies about guinea pigs shaking their asses and screaming their lungs out every 2 seconds, then I'll stay far away from the theater. So to me, not only has the animation image changed, but also the culture behind it.

Joined: Aug 26 2007 Posts: 2752

Doddsino wrote:

CGI vs. hand drawn to me comes down to the feel of the story. I saw Toy Story in the theater when I was in 4th grade and was absolutely blown away. It seemed like every few years Pixar was putting out a new CGI movie for Disney and at first it was fine, but now everything I see that comes out has the exact same look and same feel to a movie. They're completely zany, all the characters are established as over the top and such. And as far as "kid's movies" feel, every movie seems to include farting and the use of the word "butt".

I know that seems like a weird thing to complain about, but it seems like these movies are made for the ADD kids. When I was growing up, there was still a sense of innocence of such, sure I could get "butt" jokes from Ren and Stimpy, but most full feature movies I grew up with such as "The Fox and the Hound" and "An American Tail" simply dealt with compelling stories that didn't have to offer zany comedy every few seconds but still kept you entertained.

But I guess if they rather make movies about guinea pigs shaking their asses and screaming their lungs out every 2 seconds, then I'll stay far away from the theater. So to me, not only has the animation image changed, but also the culture behind it.

That's because most movies have been reduced to an ADD fest. Look at moves from decades back. Each decade has it's own pacing and it seems as the decades go on the faster the pacing becomes. We've gotten to the point where shit goes by so fast that are brains have trouble comprehending weather or not something is of good or bad quality and Hollywood does this intentionally. And i agree with the quality of the childrens medium of today. While i can forgive cartoon shows of today to be down right retarded, when it come to something on the silverscreen, kids should have something that is more then just robots beating the shit out of each other and fart jokes. Has there even been a thought provoking movie aimed towards kids today?

I'm actually asking this. I'm at least giving Pixar props because they at least try to make a movie that is a well balance of comedy and drama with a well mesh of plot, theme and interesting characters. I go back to my argument that movies of today are shinny keys and the audience are a bunch of cats.

Title: Cat of Ulthar Joined: Oct 01 2009 Posts: 93

Thought-provoking - Can be elitist and pretentious but interesting: Dead Ringers, The Brood (Cronenberg is really good at this).

Mindless - Is generally retarded, but they can be entertaining: Evil Dead, The Goonies, Bad Taste, The Being.

As for hand drawn vs CGI, I'll go with hand drawn, because to me that's real art. Now don't get wrong, there is some good CGI out there (albeit not very much), and those Pixar movies can be adorable. And stop-motion is awesome.

Joined: Oct 01 2009 Posts: 5316

I haven't seen "Up" for example, and a lot of people have told me that it's a very good movie, and at this point, believe it's "Picture of the Year". The whole ADD movie craze I believe started with a crap movie like Space Jam, since that's the earliest crap movie I could possibly think that did great at the box office.

And that's the problem I think, when I watched a movie as a child, the thing I would carry with me the most was the story, not the jokes. It feels like they're catering to the lowest common scum by writing jokes with story around them. I swear the next kid's movie that comes out that plays the song "Milkshake" to a fucking animal...I'm going to flip shit.

Joined: Aug 26 2007 Posts: 2752

Mr. Blackwell wrote:

Thought-provoking - Can be elitist and pretentious but interesting: Dead Ringers, The Brood (Cronenberg is really good at this).

Mindless - Is generally retarded, but they can be entertaining: Evil Dead, The Goonies, Bad Taste, The Being.

As for hand drawn vs. CGI, I'll go with hand drawn, because to me that's real art. Now don't get wrong, there is some good CGI out there (albeit not very much), and those Pixar movies can be adorable. And stop-motion is awesome.

I do agree with your points on how Thought-provoking can be elitist and mindless can be entertaining. The problem is in this day and age, the amount of mindless overpowers the thought-provoking. This is way District 9 was appraised so much because the thought-provoking movies have become so rare especially during the summer season. In fact, dare i say, the mindless movies have become such the norm that it's become elitist in it's own right now. So people who like to think about what they are watching can't have a movie but people who gave up on thought after high school can have as many movies as they want? That right their, is discrimination in it's most meta of form.

Doddsino wrote:

I haven't seen "Up" for example, and a lot of people have told me that it's a very good movie, and at this point, believe it's "Picture of the Year". The whole ADD movie craze I believe started with a crap movie like Space Jam, since that's the earliest crap movie I could possibly think that did great at the box office.

And that's the problem I think, when I watched a movie as a child, the thing I would carry with me the most was the story, not the jokes. It feels like they're catering to the lowest common scum by writing jokes with story around them. I swear the next kid's movie that comes out that plays the song "Milkshake" to a fucking animal...I'm going to flip shit.

And some jokes get so obscene you wonder how they got by the MPAA. Look at transformers 2, i have yet to hear anyone say that any of the jokes from that movie were funny and not annoying as hell. I'm looking at you skid and mudflap.

Title: Cat of Ulthar Joined: Oct 01 2009 Posts: 93

I'm with you, Reeper. I think that the problem with the "mindless" ones is that they are proliferated waaay more than they once were, and they have become the norm. Many, many years ago critics would slam movies of that ilk while today they praise them and practically encourage viewers to go see them; all the while well-made movies that require some degree of thought to be enjoyed are getting shut out, and it's definitely not fair. It's a shame that Hollywood has become a cesspool of bathetic stereotype jokes, infantile sexual innuendo, and remakes.

Posted: Oct 11 2009 03:37 pm

I think I'm probably the odd man out in that I'll take a bad dub over a sub any day. As long as the dub doesn't fuck up the story (Robotech), I'm fine with subpar voice acting. I think it's because I find spoken Japanese outrageously annoying.

Joined: Aug 26 2007 Posts: 2752

Char Aznable wrote:

I think I'm probably the odd man out in that I'll take a bad dub over a sub any day. As long as the dub doesn't fuck up the story (Robotech), I'm fine with subpar voice acting. I think it's because I find spoken Japanese outrageously annoying.

Watch Ghost Stories, the dub may detract from the original plot but it gives the anime a hearty comedy story. And it has so many pop culture references that it's worth to watch just to see what they come up with next.

Posted: Oct 12 2009 06:45 am

I actually really like the Robotech series (the books especially). I'm a fan of hand drawn over CGI in most cases because it usually feels like the creators have to put more effort and care into their designs. On the other hand Pixar has proven that just as much care can be put into CGI. I guess I'll have to agree with the above posters. It really is the story that matters however I have to admit that I find hand drawn more appealing.

On a different note that movie looks really cool Atman, I think I actually want to see it.

Gallery 2 · Posted: Oct 14 2009 10:29 am

Neutral-Bob wrote:

On a different note that movie looks really cool Atman, I think I actually want to see it.

That'll be Hayao Miyazaki's Spirited Away; it's definitively worth checking it out.

Posted: Oct 16 2009 07:59 pm

Mr. Bomberman wrote:

Besides anything from Pixar and the occasional other hit, I prefer hand drawn... for days, man.

asbestos_pie wrote:

I really wanted to like Japanimation, but I can't stand it. The ugly-ass animation and melodramatic voice-acting scare me away.

a. what the fuck did you watch, then?

b. this is the kind of impression one gets after watching too many bad english dubs... just saying. if you've watched subs-only, then that's just the Japanese language for you.

Well, those are just my opinion (who else's would they be?). There is really no draw for me since I don't care for either the visual or audio aspects of anime movies. I even tried to re-watch Princess Mononoke (which is supposedly one of the best) and just gave up on it half-way through.

Posted: Oct 16 2009 10:10 pm

AtmanRyu wrote:

That'll be Hayao Miyazaki's Spirited Away; it's definitively worth checking it out.

Actually I was talking about the other movie you linked however Spirited Away isn't bad. I prefer Porco Rosso though.