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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
Posts: 7565
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Oh, my...extended-art lands...
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Haddox
Flying Hellfish
Title: Pirate
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: The High Seas
Posts: 174
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Why is it raining crystals?
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Knyte
2010 SLF Tag Champ*
Title: Curator Of The VGM
Joined: Nov 01 2006
Location: Here I am.
Posts: 6749
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Apparently they will be only in the boosters and fat packs, you only get regular lands in the intro packs.
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Dr. Jeebus
Moderator
Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 5228
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Haddox
Flying Hellfish
Title: Pirate
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: The High Seas
Posts: 174
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Dr. Jeebus wrote: |
Those are quite sexy! |
Sexy? I'll fucking punch you, I swear to god.
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
Posts: 7565
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This is even more interesting...
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Knyte
2010 SLF Tag Champ*
Title: Curator Of The VGM
Joined: Nov 01 2006
Location: Here I am.
Posts: 6749
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Where does the water come from to fill the bowls? Do they randomly float around and dip into the ocean to scoop water up and then tip over and pour it back in? Does it fill with rain water? I want answers, damnit!
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Black Zarak
Title: Big Coffin Hunter
Joined: Feb 01 2006
Location: Phyrexia
Posts: 4098
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I think that's a great idea on the lands; it's annoying/disappointing to get a basic land in every booster pack when you have 400 already. I'd much rather get a full art land, even taking a land as a last pick in draft becomes more appealing.
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REVIEWS, LEGOS, NONSENSE Check out Zarak's Barracks!
"Let that be a lesson to you, your family and everyone you've ever known..."
"Thanks to denial, I'm immortal!" |
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Dr. Jeebus
Moderator
Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 5228
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land will no longer be 15th picks in draft. If I saw a pack with yawning fissure, bountiful harvest, angel's mercy, tome scour, and a full art basic land, that land would be gone in an instant.
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dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
UsaSatsui wrote: |
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus |
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
Posts: 7565
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Dr. Jeebus wrote: |
land will no longer be 15th picks in draft. If I saw a pack with yawning fissure, bountiful harvest, angel's mercy, tome scour, and a full art basic land, that land would be gone in an instant. |
...if the last card were a normal land, I'd be hard-pressed to not pick it.
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Black Zarak
Title: Big Coffin Hunter
Joined: Feb 01 2006
Location: Phyrexia
Posts: 4098
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Oh come on, Angel's Mercy isn't that bad. Neither is Tome Scour really. Maybe not in limited, but I play with Tome Scour in my milling deck.
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REVIEWS, LEGOS, NONSENSE Check out Zarak's Barracks!
"Let that be a lesson to you, your family and everyone you've ever known..."
"Thanks to denial, I'm immortal!" |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24882
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Tome Scour is good in limited too. I'm sick of people saying it's not.
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Dr. Jeebus
Moderator
Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 5228
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People are saying it's not good in limited because it's not good in limited. If and only if you have Jace can you run Tome Scour in limited.
And Angel's Mercy is horrible in limited, but fine in a constructed deck that's centered around exploiting life gain.
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dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
UsaSatsui wrote: |
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24882
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Despite M10's best efforts to the contrary, there's more than one way to approach both MTG in general and limited in particular.
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
Posts: 7565
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Tome Scour is better in limited. Taking 5 cards out of a 30 card library is more effective than taking 5 cards out of a 50 card library.
I don't think you can get enough mill in Limited to make it a viable strategy, though, unless you draft them like nuts.
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Dr. Jeebus
Moderator
Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 5228
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Syd Lexia wrote: |
Despite M10's best efforts to the contrary, there's more than one way to approach both MTG in general and limited in particular. |
I understand that milling is a way to win the game. I love milling and did it a lot in Ravnica and Shadowmoor. However, Tome Scour will NOT win you the game without Jace. This is the best analogy I can come up with to explain why Tome Scour is bad for limited without Jace:
Imagine a card, Venom Scour, that said "Target player gets 2 poison counters". You would need to play 5 of them to win the game, which is similar to the number of Tome Scours you would need to play to win. Knowing that, would you run Venom Scour in your deck if you had less than 5 of them? Of course not, it doesn't do anything and without 5 of them you're not winning the game. Let's say you had, I don't know, 6 of them. Would you run them then? The answer should still be no.
Venom Scour has absolutely no effect on the game. Sure it gives your opponent 2 poison counters, but so what? Nothing else in your deck deals with poison counters. That means that every time you play a Venom Scour you are spending mana and discarding a card from your hand for ZERO effect. If you cast the fifth one of them you win the game, but that means you have to draw 5 of your 6 Venom Scours and survive long enough to play them all despite the fact that your opponent is playing creatures and and spells that are dealing damage to you while you're casting spells that have no individual effect, only a potential total effect. It just doesn't make sense to do this. Don't forget also that counterspells are VERY good in M10, so while your opponent may let you cast Venom Scour 4 times, if they're playing blue they'll be holding a counterspell for that 5th one. And again, even if you have 6 Venom Scours in your deck, you need to draw FIVE of them. Drawing 3 in a game does absolutely nothing for you.
I know you're gonna bitch that milling is nothing like poison, but in M10 it is. You need to cast at least 5 Tome Scours to win, and that's 5 spells that aren't stopping your opponent from killing you. I know it LOOKS like Tome Scour is doing more, because you can see cards going to their graveyard. I know you MIGHT mill a Captain of the Watch that would have killed you. Know what? You also might mill a couple land and small creatures and put Captain of the Watch on top of their deck instead.
If you remember, I never called Drowner Initiate or Memory Sluice bad, and I never called Vedalken Entrancer or Psychic Drain bad (I HAVE called Lurking Informant bad I'm sure, but it was playable if you needed some extra mill cards). Milling is a perfectly legitimate strategy, but Tome Scour is not strong enough to do it alone.
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dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
UsaSatsui wrote: |
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24882
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Comparing milling to poison counters is idiotic. Tome Scour is five cards out of their deck. Period. That is five cards they can't play, unless they have an effect that lets them get cards out of the graveyard. It doesn't matter if you mill them to death or not, you've removed five cards from their deck. And that is rarely a good thing for them.
Worst case scenario: you save them from a mana screw or a mana flood
Best case scenario: you take five bombs out of their library
A better analogy for Tome Scour would be the ability Suspend. A Suspended card has no immediate effect on playstate, but it effects the future playstate.
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Dr. Jeebus
Moderator
Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 5228
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I knew you'd consider it idiotic, but you're wrong. Tome Scour is indeed 5 cards out of their deck. If they're playing black, that's not necessarily a disadvantage since Gravedigger, Rise from the Grave, and to a lesser extent Disentomb are all completely playable cards, as is Nature's Spiral for green. If they're playing anything else, they probably won't care. Sure it sucks to see Fireball milled away, but if you absolutely couldn't win the game without it then your deck is bad anyway. The problem with Tome Scour is that it doesn't effect their relevant resources. Their cards in hand are the same. Their permanents in play are the same. The only change is that they are drawing a different completely random card. Again, it sucks to see something like Fireball milled off the top of my deck, but you didn't manipulate my deck. You aren't controlling what I draw, just eliminating some of the possibilities (And there's absolutely no guarantee that the result of that is in your favor).
And suspend is a terrible analog. A suspended card will effect the game state because it will either come into play as a creature or is a spell with some other effect, like Rift Bolt which deals damage. Tome Scour doesn't do this at all.
If you're so convinced that Tome Scour is a good card, then force blue tonight. Draft every Tome Scour you see and play all of them in your deck. In fact, no one else is going to take Tome Scour so you don't even need to force blue, you can just splash for them. I want you to play a deck with 3-6 Tome Scours in it in draft tonight and let's see exactly how much Tome Scour helps.
#edit: You're looking at this too passively. You play Tome Scour and think "Now you can't kill me with Fireball and Earthquake". I think "I'll just kill you with my other cards, since you're not actively trying to stop me".
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dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
UsaSatsui wrote: |
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus |
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Dr. Jeebus
Moderator
Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 5228
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There are 4 cards from Zendikar that were spoiled at Gen-Con. They're all generic commons, but one of them has Kicker, so that's back. The other is an "Instant - Trap", so there's a new subtype of spells. Yes, it's going to be hilarious hearing "It's a trap" or "That activates by trap card!" over and over again, very loudly.
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dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
UsaSatsui wrote: |
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus |
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
Posts: 7565
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Syd Lexia wrote: |
Comparing milling to poison counters is idiotic. Tome Scour is five cards out of their deck. Period. That is five cards they can't play, unless they have an effect that lets them get cards out of the graveyard. It doesn't matter if you mill them to death or not, you've removed five cards from their deck. And that is rarely a good thing for them. |
You know those 5 cards on the bottom of their library? Those are 5 cards they can't play either. The difference is you didn't waste any cards in your deck to make them unplayable.
The rules of probability state that every card is equally likely to appear in any order in the deck. You might mill 5 good cards. You might mill the 5 lands that are blocking their win card. You never know, it's all random. Milling for the sake of milling does nothing, all you're doing is telling your opponent what they aren't gonna draw, so they have a better idea of what they will.
Unless you have an effect that lets you know when to mill (by looking at their library), or you're going for the win by decking, milling is worthless.
I compare the effect to cards like Lava Axe that can only hit players. Glimpse the Unthinkable, for example, is essentially 4 damage for 2 mana, because it will knock off 20% of their deck (4 damage is 20% of the life total).
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