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Posted: May 30 2009 11:33 am

Being agnostic, I find it amusing that some people follow the works of another mortal man.

Joined: Apr 14 2006 Location: Lake Michigan Posts: 3332

Even if you deny Jesus' divinity, you have to admit that his philosophy is a good one.

Posted: May 30 2009 12:39 pm

I believe he's talking about L. Ron Hubbard.

Joined: Apr 14 2006 Location: Lake Michigan Posts: 3332

Oops.

Joined: Aug 26 2007 Posts: 2752

lavalarva wrote:

I learned about Scientology from South Park, searched on the net about it, and was surprised the episode was actually pretty accurate.

But I don't really care that much, partly because I'm currently REALLY pissed off at the Christian church for saying something in the lines of abortion being worse than rape.

Okay, now that is fuck up. Why does Christianity always put it foot into it's mouth so easily?

Posted: May 30 2009 01:26 pm

Well, to be fair, which is worse? Attacking a person, or outright killing a person?

Joined: Aug 26 2007 Posts: 2752

Syd Lexia wrote:

Well, to be fair, which is worse? Attacking a person, or outright killing a person?

You make a good point. Although, I'm not for Abortion, but raping someone will always be in my eyes something equally as horrific as killing someone. Saying one is worse then the other is up for opinion.

Posted: May 30 2009 02:48 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

Well, to be fair, which is worse? Attacking a person, or outright killing a person?

Attacking a person? That's kind of belittleing what rape is don't you think? You aren't punching someone or beating someone up because they pissed you off. Rape is MUCH worse than that.

So you're saying if someone is raped and are impregnated, aborting a phoetus that got there by force and is not yet a person is worse then the act that put it there? Or what are you saying? Rape is worse than abortion, I don't condone abortion but there is a reason why rape is one of the worst acts a person can commit abortion is legal.

The church is stupid for saying that, it's fine if they are 100% against abortion and think it's terrible, but to call it worse than rape? That seems like they're trying to make the molestation's committed by those associated with hte church seem like less aof a big deal.

EDIT: Maybe it's wrong but if my g/f or wife or sister was raped and it destroyed them, I would do everything in my power to find the person and if I didn't kill him I would do everything in my power to come damn close.

Posted: May 30 2009 03:12 pm

anorexorcist wrote:

Syd Lexia wrote:

Well, to be fair, which is worse? Attacking a person, or outright killing a person?

So you're saying if someone is raped and are impregnated, aborting a phoetus that got there by force and is not yet a person is worse then the act that put it there? Or what are you saying? Rape is worse than abortion, I don't condone abortion but there is a reason why rape is one of the worst acts a person can commit abortion is legal.

The church is stupid for saying that, it's fine if they are 100% against abortion and think it's terrible, but to call it worse than rape? That seems like they're trying to make the molestation's committed by those associated with hte church seem like less aof a big deal.

1) What the hell is phoetus? Is it anything like a fetus?
2) Rape is an awful, awful thing. It's nothing you ever fully recover from. It changes you, it damages you permanently, and your life will never be the same again. It is not something to be taken lightly in any way, shape, or form.
3) Abortion is a very gray area, both morally and legally. What constitutes a life? What constitutes murder? When, if ever, is all right to take a life? These are issues that U.S. Supreme Court intentionally avoided in the Roe v. Wade decision, and in doing so, they created one of the most controversial issues of the last 100 years.
4) A rape victim should NEVER be made to carry her attacker's baby against her will. But she also be made aware that abortion is not the only option. They are plenty of couples out there that would be willing to adopt her child if she chose to carry it to term, and there are programs out there will pay all the costs involved should she choose to do so.
5) Abortion is currently legal, and as such, it cannot realistically be made illegal. Doing so would likely result in a massive march on Washington that would end with a millio angry women shoving coathangers up their vaginas in protest. The fallout from the sudden illegalization of abortion in America would further split the already divided country even deeper along red state/blue state lines.
6) While abortion should most certainly be legal, it should be a last resort. It should be there to protect women who are sexually assaulted and women who are endangered by their pregnancy. It should not be there so that drunken teenagers and bored WASPs can live their lives recklessly and not suffer the consequences.
7) Most of all, there needs to be better sex education and contraception education in our schools so that unwanted babies can be prevented instead of slaughtered.

Posted: May 30 2009 03:21 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

anorexorcist wrote:

Syd Lexia wrote:

Well, to be fair, which is worse? Attacking a person, or outright killing a person?

So you're saying if someone is raped and are impregnated, aborting a phoetus that got there by force and is not yet a person is worse then the act that put it there? Or what are you saying? Rape is worse than abortion, I don't condone abortion but there is a reason why rape is one of the worst acts a person can commit abortion is legal.

The church is stupid for saying that, it's fine if they are 100% against abortion and think it's terrible, but to call it worse than rape? That seems like they're trying to make the molestation's committed by those associated with hte church seem like less aof a big deal.

1) What the hell is phoetus? Is it anything like a fetus?
2) Rape is an awful, awful thing. It's nothing you ever fully recover from. It changes you, it damages you permanently, and your life will never be the same again. It is not something to be taken lightly in any way, shape, or form.
3) Abortion is a very gray area, both morally and legally. What constitutes a life? What constitutes murder? When, if ever, is all right to take a life? These are issues that U.S. Supreme Court intentionally avoided in the Roe v. Wade decision, and in doing so, they created one of the most controversial issues of the last 100 years.
4) A rape victim should NEVER be made to carry her attacker's baby against her will. But she also be made aware that abortion is not the only option. They are plenty of couples out there that would be willing to adopt her child if she chose to carry it to term, and there are programs out there will pay all the costs involved should she choose to do so.
5) Abortion is currently legal, and as such, it cannot realistically be made illegal. Doing so would likely result in a massive march on Washington that would end with a millio angry women shoving coathangers up their vaginas in protest. The fallout from the sudden illegalization of abortion in America would further split the already divided country even deeper along red state/blue state lines.
6) While abortion should most certainly be legal, it should be a last resort. It should be there to protect women who are sexually assaulted and women who are endangered by their pregnancy. It should not be there so that drunken teenagers and bored WASPs can live their lives recklessly and not suffer the consequences.
7) Most of all, there needs to be better sex education and contraception education in our schools so that unwanted babies can be prevented instead of slaughtered.

I agree that it should be a last resort and I believe it should more or less be reserved for rape victims or victims of incest, but to call it worse than rape is retarted. I can see the church having a different view if some of their officials weren't molesting kids. When you basically harbour a few rapists, you're going to say rape isn't as bad as something else.

I know a guy who was the product of rape, he attempted to rape a girl in his school, in public so he didn't get far, transferred to my school and seeing him and talking to him, it is easy to see he is not right mentally.

Abortion as a means of birth control for some, I do not agree with but it's not my choice, I'm never going to be pregnant, I'm not a woman so it's not up to me to tell them they can't do something that I would never be faced with.

EDIT: So I spelled fetus improperly, should I go through your post and pick out all of your mistakes? I noticed several but I don't feel the need to unlike you.

Second EDIT: I forgot this was a Scientology thread.

Posted: May 30 2009 03:39 pm

The Church's position is:

Murder > Anything That Isn't Murder

You don't have to agree with this. You also don't have to agree that abortion is a form of murder. But it is not an indefensible position by any means.

Posted: May 30 2009 03:50 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

The Church's position is:

Murder > Anything That Isn't Murder

You don't have to agree with this. You also don't have to agree that abortion is a form of murder. But it is not an indefensible position by any means.

It's not an impenetratble defense either, thus it is a postion that has a number of people on it's side and a number on the other side. You're stance is fair enough in my books and I don't think I have anything more too add.

So, how 'bout them Xenu believin' folk?

Banned Joined: Sep 13 2008 Posts: 3129

It's kind of sad but all I know about scientology came from south park.

South park also said that 1/4 of Americans are retards. I am starting to beleive that

Posted: May 30 2009 05:52 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

4) A rape victim should NEVER be made to carry her attacker's baby against her will. But she also be made aware that abortion is not the only option. They are plenty of couples out there that would be willing to adopt her child if she chose to carry it to term, and there are programs out there will pay all the costs involved should she choose to do so.

6) While abortion should most certainly be legal, it should be a last resort. It should be there to protect women who are sexually assaulted and women who are endangered by their pregnancy. It should not be there so that drunken teenagers and bored WASPs can live their lives recklessly and not suffer the consequences.

7) Most of all, there needs to be better sex education and contraception education in our schools so that unwanted babies can be prevented instead of slaughtered.

See, if more people actually put thought into things like this, rather than making a snap-emotional judgment and plugging their ears at the first whiff of not agreeing with them 100%, the world would be a far, far better place.

Honestly, I don't see how you can argue with most of that, unless you have a religious ideology that forbids abortion. Which is perfectly fine of course; no one is going to force anyone to have an abortion against their will. I would simply hope that the people against it would extend the same courtesy to those who find that is IS acceptable as a last-resort option.

Posted: May 30 2009 06:57 pm

SoldierHawk wrote:

See, if more people actually put thought into things like this, rather than making a snap-emotional judgment and plugging their ears at the first whiff of not agreeing with them 100%, the world would be a far, far better place.

Honestly, I don't see how you can argue with most of that, unless you have a religious ideology that forbids abortion. Which is perfectly fine of course; no one is going to force anyone to have an abortion against their will. I would simply hope that the people against it would extend the same courtesy to those who find that is IS acceptable as a last-resort option.

Is that in response to my post?

Title: Hugh Joined: Sep 23 2007 Posts: 1591

I kind of agree with the church. I'm not entirely sure I do, but I at least definitely understand their position.

Anyway, I know women who've been raped, and I understand how completely devastating it is and just how much it can fuck them up, for a couple of them I would definitely say that what they've gone through as a result of it is worse than death. But at the same time, I have a lot of trouble condoning the murder of the child.

I realize that for the women, the atrocity that has taken place would be magnified many times over by having to carry the child as a reminder of the event; to have the bastard's child in their bodies. Undoubtedly, for many of the women it would be unbearably horriffic and the damage done to them would be even more unimaginable, but I'm not sure it's entirely ethical to deny an innocent the right to life, or almost any existance at all for that matter, as a means of avoiding the psychological torture the woman would undergo.

It is very likely the woman's life would be ruined, but it is entirely unavoidable that the child's life wouldn't even happen. It is impossible to overstate how important and invaluable the woman's life is, but to deny the child it's inalienable right to life seems a worse thing to allow. The two lives sit even in my eyes, however the child isn't being allowed life at all, definitely. The woman would be horrible traumatized, and many would never heal, but some may recover significantly with psychological help, whereas any aborted fetuses are quite definitely dead.

Posted: May 30 2009 09:35 pm

If the church is so anti-murder now, at least one church looks worse for that incident...what was it called? Oh ya, the Spanish Inquisition.

Posted: May 30 2009 10:02 pm

I forget who said it, but the quote goes something like this:

Catholicism as a whole is no more responsible for the rise of the Inquisition than socialism as a whole is responsible for the rise of Stalin and his secret police.

Posted: May 30 2009 10:05 pm

I won't go on because the last thread that had negativety towards catholocism dissapeared forever and religion become 200% taboo on here.

Posted: May 30 2009 10:47 pm

The church and the bible don't consider issues important to women to be of any real import; rape to my knowledge is not considered a sin per se except by way of adultery, and indeed two important figures offer their unmarried daughters up for gangrape with little divine consequence in the old testament, the book where even the most minor of actions can be punishable by death or divine condemnation unto seven generations. Abortion to my knowledge is never discussed, and the churches position is inferred from statements on life and the decisions of past popes.

I'm not interested in the abortion debate any longer, its tiresome. I respect catholics position on the issue a bit more than the standard right wingers, because they also oppose execution, a power which I don't believe the state should have the ability to mandate and quite frankly the only rational position to have on the matter if your a christian on account of having a savior who was a victim and thus would probably look down on that kind of thing.

The catholic church is responsible for the inquisition, as well as any the mass execution of heretics for the entirety of the time it was capable of mandating death or demanding any halt of behaviors by adherants. By heretics, I mean athiests, jews, muslims, suspected witches, and frankly any person who disagreed with the church and was not so charismatic as to simply be excommunicated.

Its the burden they both bore, couldn't bear, and still desire to hold again as the sole deciders of the nature of morality in the state, to be responsible for their vast failings of human decency that they advocated in both practice and position. Its not fair to harp on modern catholics, who by way of the zeitgeist would have made a different decision and arent responsible in the first place, but it remains the truth of the matter.

2011 SNES Champ Joined: Dec 04 2006 Posts: 1929

I think I should put what I said back in context because I was too vague.

It was from a news article I read. I can't remember where I read it (link from some forum), but I found another talking about the same case (the date is March 5th) :

Quote:

A NINE-YEAR-OLD girl who was carrying twins, allegedly after being raped by her stepfather, underwent an abortion today despite complaints from Brazil's Roman Catholic church.

Police said the stepfather has been jailed since last week, the Associated Press (AP) reported.

Abortion is illegal in Brazil, but judges can make exceptions if the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has no chance of survival.

Fatima Maia, director of the public university hospital where the abortion was performed, said the 15-week-old pregnancy posed a serious risk to the 36-kilogram girl, AP reported.

"She is very small. Her uterus doesn't have the ability to hold one, let alone two children," Ms Maia told the Jornal do Brasil newspaper.

But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in northeastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a cesarean section, AP reported.

The article I had read first also stated the mother of the child and the doctors who performed the abortion were excommunicated, but not the stepfather.
I think Vatican also commented about this too, but because I can't find the fucking article I'm not sure.

But the local priests are nice so I can just not give a shit about anywhere else and be happy and suppress my urge to punch people.

(Random comment) Your opinion on castrating rapists?

Posted: Jun 01 2009 07:17 pm

lavalarva wrote:

(Random comment) Your opinion on castrating rapists?

Depends. If you're talking about taking a pair of garden shears to a guy's balls by way of retribution, I would have to say...grrr...as much as I'd like to say yes, I'd have to say no. But then, I've never been raped, or known anyone who has been. If it happened to my little sister, I'd probably go out hunting with the shears myself, so I guess I'm a bt of a hypocrite. In terms of, like, chemical castration, to try and avoid recidivism, I'd say that should be reserved for child molesters, who are in it for the sex. Rapists are usually do it because they are violent, and want to assert control. Sex has little to do with it, so I doubt it would be of much use.

Oh yeah, this was a Scientology thread huh. Um, anyone know Xenu's position on the issue...?