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The end of WWII


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Syd Lexia
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Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Mar 13 2009 12:21 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Cattivo wrote:
My grandfather was in the Navy too, and of course in the same situation. It would be funny if they served together.

My maternal grandfather was in the Navy as well. I don't believe he saw any combat, so he was probably in the same situation. Dunno if my mom or grandmother could tell me for sure.
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
PostPosted: Mar 13 2009 12:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Did he serve stateside then, or did he serve near the end of the war protecting islands that had already been retaken?

My Navy grandfather served in the Aleutian Islands in Alaska, taking them back from the Japanese.

My other grandfather was in the Army Air Force (Precursor to the Air Force), and served in the Philippines, taking them back from the Japanese as well.
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Syd Lexia
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Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Mar 13 2009 12:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I really don't know. When I was like 12, which is around the time I would have started caring about such stuff, his health was failing so I never got to ask him. Could I request his records from the Navy via the Freedom of Information Act?
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
PostPosted: Mar 13 2009 02:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I believe you can. I think there is some way for you to inquire. Unfortunately, I would not know the process you would need to go through.

I was fortunate in that my Navy grandfather used to be very talkative, so, before his health starting failing him a little while ago, I was able to get some stories from him, although most of them involved him sneaking alcohol onto the base to have fun with his buddies - both during the war and afterward when he was in the reserves as a photojournalist.

My other grandfather never talked about the war, and all that I know about his service is what I have learned from what my Dad told me, mostly from when my grandfather passed away two years ago.
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Mar 13 2009 09:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Pandajuice wrote:
Greg the White wrote:
For me, it's a reluctant "yes." Projected casualties for a mainland invasion were way beyond what the atom bomb did, but I have to wonder why we dropped it on a densely-populated city. Why not visibly offshore, or on a military target such as an isolated airbase or fort. I guess they just wanted to make sure that everybody saw it, but you still have to wonder why we put ourselves in the anti-civilian-killing elite, but still pull that off "because we have no other choice."


Well, there was no such thing as an isolated airbase or fort in Japan. It's such a tiny island, and most of it is mountainous, that every inch of it is densely populated. And again, Nagasaki and Hiroshima were military cities in a technical sense. It's as if Japan had dropped a nuke on Detroit. Sure, a bunch of civilians got killed, but it was also a city completely dedicated to the manufacture of airplanes, tanks, and engines, so was technically a strategic, military target.

Also, offshore wouldn't have worked either, and Truman knew that. The US only had two bombs to use at that time, not the thousands we have today. Just two; Fatman and Little Boy. So they couldn't be wasted in trying to send a message that Japan wouldn't have responded to anyway. Japan was dedicated to fighting to the absolute end if they had to, and even having had two cities nuked, and being fed false information that the US had more nukes to use, they only barely surrendered when they did. It took a direct order from the Emperor himself to demand that the military surrender, who weren't going to, even after the second bomb.


Densely-populated as in it was an industrious city. We called Japan monsters for bombing Pearl Harbor but say that wiping out a civilian zone. And beside that, there was no manufacturing going on in Japan at that time. Any weapons being made were either home-made explosives, crappy unuseable rifles, and hand-held spears. Hell, the few planes they could muster up for Okinawa were made almost entirely out of wood.

And the military couldn't really surrender right after the first bomb because we WIPED OUT A CITY. People couldn't tell if they should drink any of the water in what was left of the tiny city of Hiroshima, much less get a message out of the devastation. And if it was such an important city to the war effort, then wouldn't Japan have really been hurt in the long run? Instead, it just seemed like a way to establish ourselves as THE power, no matter how many civilians we had to wipe out.

One thing also conflicts me. With the atom bombs, Japan saw the worst of what the atomic age's new weaponry could bring. This is probably what urged them to become a pacifist nation, allowing them to divert money from military to other usages such as modernizing infrastructure and technology that make it the economic powerhouse it is today, while also aiding the world with new developments and inventions. So I do have to wonder to myself how different history would have been without it. Ah, whatever, I'm gonna go play my NES... wait.


So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind.
 
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Syd Lexia
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Title: Pop Culture Junkie
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PostPosted: Mar 13 2009 09:23 pm Reply with quote Back to top

A couple of things, Greg.

1. The Japanese don't believe in surrender. As Cattivo pointed out, even after TWO atom bombs, the Japanese people were not ready to surrender and it took a radio message from Emperor Hirohito to prevent people from committing hara kiri in the streets en masse.
2. Japan isn't ALLOWED to have a military; that was one of the terms of their unconditional surrender.
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Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
PostPosted: Mar 13 2009 11:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Greg the White wrote:
Densely-populated as in it was an industrious city. We called Japan monsters for bombing Pearl Harbor but say that wiping out a civilian zone. And beside that, there was no manufacturing going on in Japan at that time. Any weapons being made were either home-made explosives, crappy unuseable rifles, and hand-held spears. Hell, the few planes they could muster up for Okinawa were made almost entirely out of wood.


Okinawa you say? Well, let's see what military historian Victor Davis Hanson says about Okinawa in relation to the use of the Atomic Bomb:

Victor Hanson, PhD wrote:
...because the Japanese on Okinawa, including native Okinawans, were so fierce in their defense (even when cut off, and without supplies), and because casualties were so appalling, many American strategists looked for an alternative means to subdue mainland Japan, other than a direct invasion. This means presented itself, with the advent of atomic bombs, which worked admirably in convincing the Japanese to sue for peace, without American casualties.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa#Military_losses

Greg the White wrote:
And the military couldn't really surrender right after the first bomb because we WIPED OUT A CITY. People couldn't tell if they should drink any of the water in what was left of the tiny city of Hiroshima, much less get a message out of the devastation.


So, let me get this straight. You're basically saying that, since the entire city was wiped out, that no one knew about it, so there was no one that could tell the Japanese authorities about what happened to Hiroshima?

Do you actually know how massive an A-bomb explosion is? I'm sure that people near the city saw an enormous mushroom cloud and told somebody about it.

In fact, according to wikipedia, the lack of radio contact caused an immediate investigation, resulting in the military discovering what happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Japanese_realization_of_the_bombing

Greg the White wrote:
One thing also conflicts me. With the atom bombs, Japan saw the worst of what the atomic age's new weaponry could bring. This is probably what urged them to become a pacifist nation


Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, which precludes any military forces for the country except for self defense purposes, was forced upon them by the US, to make sure they didn't become a militarily aggressive nation again. They had no choice over it. They have fully embraced the concept, and they should be commended for that, but that Article was not of their choice.

Greg the White wrote:
allowing them to divert money from military to other usages such as modernizing infrastructure and technology that make it the economic powerhouse it is today, while also aiding the world with new developments and inventions.


The Japanese "Economic Miracle" of the 1950s, like the "Economic Miracle" in Italy during the same decade, was a result of widespread industrialization & modernization, not from the diverting of military money. The projects that allowed that growth weren't fully funded by a diversion of military funds, but by private companies acting within the free market, the Japanese government coordinating with corporations, and American investment. The "freeing up" of funds had nothing to do with it, especially since that period would not have been a time for militarization anyway, but of rebuilding, which naturally stimulates economic growth.

From the wikipedia article:

"The American government, under the auspices of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers (SCAP), played a crucial role in Japan’s initial economic recovery."

"The Japanese government contributed to the post-war Japanese economic miracle by stimulating private sector growth."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_economic_miracle
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