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Wrong to miss Bush?


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SoldierHawk
Moderator
Title: Warrior-Poet
Joined: Jan 15 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Jan 21 2009 01:12 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Kubo wrote:
.
2) No problem whatsoever. And please don't take my rebuttals/rants as any disrespect toward you. I can't tell you the amount of respect I have for you for being a Marine... I've had the pleasure of interviewing a few for research I've done in counter-terrorism, and 100% of the time, they've been great people. In these debates, I get carried away as well- but mostly due to my frustration about intelligent people who refuse to recognize the benefits of controversial policies. So essentially, we're in the same boat, I'm just wearing a red lifevest and you're wearing a blue one.


Yes, but under those vests we're all wearing American flag tee-shirts. And that's what really counts. (Yeah yeah I know, group hug! Razz ) Dammit I love reasonable people. Never thought I'd find this large a population of them on the internet though!


militarysignatures.com

William Shakespeare wrote:
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none.

 
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jan 21 2009 01:23 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I think Kerry was treated unfairly during the 2004 election. People came out on both sides of the aisle in defense of his service; McCain was one of them. But I also think he was unfairly critical of his fellow Vietnam vets.
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Ash Burton
Title: AshRaiser
Joined: Nov 10 2008
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Jan 21 2009 01:26 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Kubo wrote:
Marine79 wrote:
Oops, no WOMD! So ok, lets see...why did we invade? Oh yeah, to help the poor Kurds! Lol, if we are in the business of helping people in need then where were we when Darfur happened. How bout Cuba? Korea?

Please don't take my rants as anything more than discussion. I am a Marine, and a Political Science major so I do tend to get carried away. I especially get frustrated by the level of intelligent people who are still misinformed about the former President.


1) I agree that the pretense under which to invade Iraq was, in retrospect, ill informed and stupid- but that doesn't mean that the endgame of the war is any less beneficial. There are ideological and moral issues with going to war in Iraq, yes. But there are also victories that this war has provided that go largely unnoticed. You made my point for me... it's stupid to argue either for OR against the Iraq war on the basis of helping others since administrations from both sides of the aisle have chosen to fight some wars and not fight others. The argument that the Iraq war was wrong OR right on the basis of helping a repressed subpopulation is ignoring the history of U.S. support (or lack thereof) for similar situations.

2) No problem whatsoever. And please don't take my rebuttals/rants as any disrespect toward you. I can't tell you the amount of respect I have for you for being a Marine... I've had the pleasure of interviewing a few for research I've done in counter-terrorism, and 100% of the time, they've been great people. In these debates, I get carried away as well- but mostly due to my frustration about intelligent people who refuse to recognize the benefits of controversial policies. So essentially, we're in the same boat, I'm just wearing a red lifevest and you're wearing a blue one.



No worries. What I mean with my argument to this war is that we 1) took our eyes of the real threat in Afghanistan and Pakistan. 2) Ignored the Powell Doctrine and entered this war half-cocked with no exit strategy and no real alliance. 3) Created a new playing field for terrorism and strengthened Iran's power in the region. 4) Mislead the American people into this war by conjuring up fear and creating a false link between 9/11 and Iraq.

There was a reason we did not invade Iraq in the first Gulf War, in fact George Bush Sr. wrote an interesting essay on it. I guess Jr. never read that one, because he's "not a big reader". Anyways, the war was wrong one at the wrong time, and that is my opinion. The funny thing is that the Marines felt the same way, lol, check out this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/washington/11military.html


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joshwoodzy wrote:
Ash is probably just home humping his SNES collection.

 
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Greg the White
Joined: Apr 09 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Jan 21 2009 01:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Kubo wrote:
Greg the White wrote:

1) The loan accusation is racist bullshit. The Right-wing radio hosts want you to believe that it's them damned poor darkies getting home loans, when the main factor was the de-regulation of credit default swaps.

It sounds like we're both mostly on the same page, just opposite sides of the aisle, which is very cool. The only point I have to take issue with with you is the one above. The subprime loan thing isn't racist bullshit. De-regulation of credit default swaps aside, if you can explain to me how it's good business to provide mortgages for those who don't have the credit to pay for them ten years down the road, I'll eat my hat (as the old people say).

The lack of foresight on the part of the Clinton administration for providing those mortgages was almost impressive. I don't think the Clinton admin. had bad intentions with that legislation, I just think he and the rest of the administration assumed the best in people, and it just didn't turn out that way, and bam... shitty mortgage accounts that have to be paid from elsewhere.

There's 1000 reasons why the economy sucks at the moment, but simply because one of those reasons involves a large contingent of minorities in the country doesn't make it any less valid.

Allowing people in houses they can't afford just pushes them out of the house. They still have jobs, and the houses can still be sold to another buyer. Allowing large, high-employing businesses to put themselves in debts they can't pay for bottom-line's sake without any accountability puts jobs at risk, which means people can't afford houses at all, leaving a lot of signs in yards, and a lot of economic ghost towns.

Yeah, Clinton dropped the ball in how the dot-com thing was nurtured, but there was nothing anybody could do, unless you want the government closing down private businesses for being useless.

And before I get any "COMMUNIST STAY OUT OF ECONOMY" accusations, I'm more of government supporting the infrastructure of economic progress. I think the government should build better roads to allow access to different areas of the country (Gov. Rendell is pretty smart for realizing this here in PA), more high-speed internet for fledgling businesses and online businesses, investing in promising ideas such as alternative fuels, reviewing patent law restrictions, etc. Just handing money and free businesses contracts is just croneyism and favors stagnation instead of growth.


So here's to you Mrs. Robinson. People love you more- oh, nevermind.
 
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King
Title: CTE
Joined: Apr 27 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
PostPosted: Jan 22 2009 11:30 am Reply with quote Back to top

Wow, just read this whole thread, and DAMN

Okay, being the true independent here I guess I will inject a bit here. I too was sad Tsongas had to drop from the 92 primaries. I really like him, and was sad at his passing as well. I do like Obama much better than McCain for the simple reason that McCain since losing in the 2000 primary has done nothing but whatever he has to to get elected. He has backed the party line in things he has disagreed with, and allied with Bush, who trashed him. Now I am not saying Obama may have not done some of these things as well, but he has stayed very closely to what he has put for as his political ideals since the beginning. All that being said I am a HUGE Nader fan, though I know he will not get elected. I hope Obama does well, but what the country really needs is someone that says and does things people don't want to hear about, but they know needs done. People like Nader or Ron Paul, or third parties in general. The polar opposites left and right both piss me the fuck off. I'm a die hard independent centrist. I think that neither side has all the answers, and all to often neither side has any of the answers. We need more voices, more perspectives if we truly are to get things where they need to be. I have hope in this administration, but I know that those that truly would do right, and really care about us, will never get elected as long as we have a 2 party system and electorial college.


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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jan 22 2009 12:21 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The only different between McCain and Obama is time. McCain has had time to make decisions, some of them tough ones. Obama has not. I can't stress this enough and it boggles my mind that people continue to ignore this like it's no big deal. Obama was only a senator for three years, and he spent nearly two thirds of that time campaigning to be president. During his time on the national stage, he never had to make any tough decisions. He took office in 2005, well after 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. He never had to vote on deposing Saddam Hussein or the Department of Homeland security or any bill with any substance to it. McCain has had to vote on some tough issues in his storied political career, and I fully reject the notion that he is in any way a sell out. Politics is a intricate game, one with a lot of give and get, and sometimes you have to make concessions to get what you want. Any long-serving politician will inevitably be forced to vote for or otherwise support something they don't believe in, in exchange for support on some other issue. Cynics refer to this as the "do anything, say anything politics as usual that keeps the same idiots in Washington year after year", but that is not correct. The fact is that we keep electing these same "idiots" to the Hill every year because we like that they're willing to make bipartisan choices and sometimes work against their own personal ideals to do what's best for the country. And McCain was always willing to work both sides of the aisle.

On top of that, as a politician, it is not your job to serve your own personal beliefs. It is your job to serve your constituents. If you are for stem cell research but your constituents are overwhemingly against it, it is your job to vote against it. You are not contractually bound to do so, but your constituents may not forgive you when the next election comes around. Many Democrats voted for the invasion of Iraq for this very reason. Then when public sentiment turned against the war, they were making excuses.

And King, yes, the two party system is quite flawed. There is no real middle ground, and it sucks. I am economically conservative and socially moderate, and each side has things that I don't like.

If I vote for Republican, I'm voting for gay marriage bans.
If I vote Democrat, I'm voting for state-funded abortions.

This election cycle, the most important issue to me was government spending. The Bush administration spent way too much money, and I want someone who's going to reign it in. So, we had both candidates promising to leave Iraq when it was reasonable to do so, there's some decreased spending right there. But then we had Obama promising to create expensive new social programs. NO! THAT'S MORE SPENDING! BAD! So I voted for McCain. Somehow I'll find a way to sleep at night if there are unwed gays running around out there. I won't be able to sleep, however, if our national debt keeps getting bigger. And after winning the election, Obama starting saying he wants to spend nearly a trillion dollars on tax rebates and "job creation". Well, there's only two ways that the government can create jobs. One way is give tax breaks to businesses, giving them extra capital to higher more workers. The other way is to create government jobs. Guess which method Democrats use? Alphabet soup, anyone?
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JRA
Joined: Sep 17 2007
Location: The Opium Trail
PostPosted: Jan 22 2009 12:35 pm Reply with quote Back to top

You wanna know why people voted for Obama instead of McCain?


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There are a lot of what if's in life Donny. What if I hit you really hard in the face, knocked yo shit to the back of yo skull? What if I....had you girl gargle my nuts? The fact remains, you are a fuckin mutant.
 
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King
Title: CTE
Joined: Apr 27 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
PostPosted: Jan 22 2009 12:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The truth is I won't sleep at night either way. Whether you take less money from business or spend for governement jobs you help the increase the deficit either way, you're fucked either way. Again, I say that the people that would make the right decisions, the ones that would do what is best, whether their constituents like it or not, will not get elected. I do want a government that represents me, don't get me wrong, and I do want to have a say as to what it does. However, I think that there are times, many times, when it is the things that they need to do, that really are doing what we want as a country, but we would not want them to do it because many would only see that act, and not it's effect. Many people want things to be instant or easy, feel good even. What we need is not easy, it is hard and difficult. We don't need so much emotion to rule, nor fear. We need reason. This isn't to say that there may not be some emotion behind programs or ideals, but to not let it cloud the judgement, and to not let a system or a party, or even an idealogy of the group someone is a member to, to fully dictate where to go, what to do, what to say, and how to lead.


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Ash Burton
Title: AshRaiser
Joined: Nov 10 2008
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Jan 22 2009 01:57 pm Reply with quote Back to top

JRA wrote:
You wanna know why people voted for Obama instead of McCain?

You hit it dead on the nail. McCain had his chance to show America that he could make the "tough" decisions when he chose his running mate. Instead, he panicked, tried to steal Hilary Clinton Dems and chose a little known crackpot who didn't know the role of the VP. Seriously? Really, John? He is about 90 years old and we were one pretzel choking incident away from having this at the helm of two wars??? Talk about not being able to sleep at night...



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joshwoodzy wrote:
Ash is probably just home humping his SNES collection.

 
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jan 22 2009 02:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Like her or not, there are people out there who love Palin. There are people who want her to run in 2012. I sincerely hope she doesn't, but support is there for her.
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Ash Burton
Title: AshRaiser
Joined: Nov 10 2008
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Jan 22 2009 02:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Like her or not, there are people out there who love Palin. There are people who want her to run in 2012. I sincerely hope she doesn't, but support is there for her.


For all those Palin lovers out there, I present...



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TheRoboSleuth
Title: Sleuth Mark IV
Joined: Aug 08 2006
Location: The Gritty Future
PostPosted: Jan 23 2009 02:39 am Reply with quote Back to top

Every party is the spending party. Republicans haven't so much as bothered to pay for anything they've bought, and the things they do spend on are national embarresments. 1.2 billion on abstinence only education anyone? Your maverick who somehow manages to make concessions to the party for the greater good even when its not, will probably concede on this point and continue to pay out the nose for utterly ineffective but GOP approved initiatives. Its not like he's all of a sudden he's going to assault FDR's miserable corn subsidies(if you can't manage to sell a product that people can and often do perish without, you are a faliure).

So basically I voted
A) with my morals. I support gay marriage, freedom of speech, freedom of and from religion(I'm waiting for an openly athiest senator or something), the right to own guns(some gun control okay, but a ban is a bad idea), the right to own porn, alchohol, tobacco, weed, and the right to abortions and birth control in a clean clinic. Hell, I'm okay with the idea of terminally ill patients to take their own lives medically assisted.
B) Related to the first is the assignment of supreme court justices. Someone in the editiorials suggested a system where a 5-4 vote in the supreme court would go to the people, seeing as the constitution had nothing to really say about it. Its something to think about, but until something happens the Supreme Court basically divides down party lines, and I can't stand the idea of conservatives pushing regressive ideology for +10 years.

The question to ask is whether going green is a road or a sandwich. That is to say, is it a large public work project that benefits from coordination, helps everybody, and is hard to charge on an individual basis? Or is it a product to be sold, where parallel competition can produce superior service, quality, or price, benefits only a subsect of people, and otherwise works well in a free market system?

If it works, green energy is a win for both sides on the aisle. Safeguarding America from having to shift dollars to foreign and often hostile powers, cleaning the environment, and genuinely creating new jobs. It would be like when a civilazation first discovers the power of building roads. What I'm getting at is that the green initiative seems to me to be better suited to a government investment.

Sarah Palin. I've developed a bit of pity for the woman. The progressive revulsion often crosses over with hypocritical sexism and loathsome party politics that had even die hard feminists trying to figure out how to defend a woman who given half the opportunity would overturn Roe in a second. And the moderate republicans universally blame her for the loss, even though McCain still had the economy, W, and sudden shift right that baffled his apologetics while failing to impress the Rusty Humphreys of the party. That being said, McCain would have been wise to not pick someone so unapologetically right wing if he intended for her to continue with what would probably have been a bipartisan legacy. And she did chip away at his best argument ever, his ability to use the youth and inexperience against Obama.


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Ermac
Title: Thread Killer
Joined: Aug 04 2008
Location: Outworld
PostPosted: Jan 23 2009 05:14 am Reply with quote Back to top

I think Palin is hot MILF despite what anybody says. She probably knows how to work Todd up real well in the bedroom(hence why they have like 5 kids and she is still pushing some out).


She represents a ton of women believe it or not, the women who normally dislike her are jealous of her looks or power. Women can be more jealous than Men can be of other men.


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TheRoboSleuth
Title: Sleuth Mark IV
Joined: Aug 08 2006
Location: The Gritty Future
PostPosted: Jan 23 2009 04:20 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Ermac wrote:
I think Palin is hot MILF despite what anybody says. She probably knows how to work Todd up real well in the bedroom(hence why they have like 5 kids and she is still pushing some out).


She represents a ton of women believe it or not, the women who normally dislike her are jealous of her looks or power. Women can be more jealous than Men can be of other men.
FAIL


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