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Posted: Oct 16 2008 10:32 am

A poor effort all around.

All we really learned was that Obama has the Bill Clintonesque ability to calmly smile while he lies through his fucking teeth.

Joined: Apr 14 2006 Location: Lake Michigan Posts: 3332

I thought it was the best of the three. The moderator, Schieffer, actually stayed out of the way and let them spar.

No clear winner, and no knockout punches, but it was at least more informative and more entertaining to watch. (I.e., no stump speeches forced into debate format).

Posted: Oct 16 2008 01:11 pm

ON JOKE NOTES: Did anyone count how many times "Joe the Plumber" kept getting brought up? McCain also only said "My Friends" one time that I counted, which surprised the hell out of all of us. I think my favorite question was the one in which both candidates had to justify their running mate. I was watching the debate in a room on campus reserved for that purpose, and when that question came up, everyone started laughing in anticipation of how McCain was going to justify Sarah "One Heartbeat Away From Being President" Palin. To his credit, he pulled it off quite nicely.
ON REAL NOTES: Overall, I doubt this debate influenced anyone's vote. If you support Obama, you'll think Obama won. If you support McCain, you'll think McCain won. One thing that distressed me was the lack of discussion of the war in Iraq. Maybe it was brought up more in the previous two debates, but that issue is the key issue that's influencing my vote. The multiple questions concerning the economy were totally justified, though, given the current crisis. I also wasn't impressed with John McCain continually bringing up Obama's non-association with Ayers [http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/ayers.asp]. Also, I found it interesting that McCain kept saying how he will bring change when he's voted with Bush 88% of the time.
I just can't wait for this whole mess to be over. Yes, I'm voting for Obama, but in all honesty, I see him as the lesser of two evils. The right just pisses me off more than the left (most of the time.) Plus, let's be realistic here, McCain could easily die in office, then we'll be stuck with President Palin, and that is not something I want.

Posted: Oct 16 2008 01:45 pm

I thought it was interesting about those "Town Hall" meetings. That would have been nice to see those. Too bad that will never happen in the history of the United States.

Joined: Apr 14 2006 Location: Lake Michigan Posts: 3332

enshinkarateman wrote:

One thing that distressed me was the lack of discussion of the war in Iraq.

This third debate was specifically setup to discuss domestic issues. The first debate was supposed to focus solely on foreign policy, but it was scheduled in the wake of the economic collapse, so that required some time taken away from international relations then.

enshinkarateman wrote:

Also, I found it interesting that McCain kept saying how he will bring change when he's voted with Bush 88% of the time.

90% of the votes in Congress are unanimous votes congratulating or commemorating some event, or condemning some miscellaneous tragedy. McCain has diverged from Bush on numerous issues, such as torture, global warming, and Iraq war strategy. He has taken significant heat from the mainstream GOP each time. In fact, McCain's most memorable line last night was when he told Obama "If you wanted to run against Bush, you should have ran in 2004."

Shut up, Dorn wrote:

I thought it was interesting about those "Town Hall" meetings. That would have been nice to see those. Too bad that will never happen in the history of the United States.

The second debate was a town hall debate. Albeit, it was hampered by extremely strict rules. Town hall events are supposed to be free-wheeling with no moderator.

In fact, at least the last two presidential elections have had town hall debates. And, the most memorable debate moment in 2000 was Gore awkwardly walking over and violating W's personal space while he was speaking in a town hall debate.

(Unless I misunderstood what you meant there Dorn)

Joined: Aug 24 2005 Location: Mount Holly, NJ Posts: 1062

Didn't see this one, but one residual effect...

After the debate, a bunch of people changed their Facebook statuses to things like "OMG McCain is a liar," "If my president acts like McCain did tonight, I'd be embarrassed, " etc. For some reason, that really, really pisses me off. I can't even put my finger on why. I think it's because making political commentary through Facebook status (or AIM status) messages is retarded, mostly because nobody can argue with you. Either that or I'm sick of Obama supporters thinking that they're bucking the status-quo and really sticking it to the man by voting Obama and then need to tell everyone about it at every opportunity.

Ugh, I guess I'm just jaded. And still fucking undecided. I may just vote Bob Barr and be done with it.

My apologies for a seemingly random and scattered post.

Joined: Apr 14 2006 Location: Lake Michigan Posts: 3332

I can understand the affinity for the libertarian party, but it's been my understanding that libertarians don't even view Barr as a true libertarian. In fact, my one libertarian friend has said he's writing in Ron Paul (doesn't matter anyway since we live in Illinois which will go for Obama no matter what.)

But, yours is a protest vote, so I guess that labeling doesn't matter.

Joined: Aug 24 2005 Location: Mount Holly, NJ Posts: 1062

Cattivo wrote:

I can understand the affinity for the libertarian party, but it's been my understanding that libertarians don't even view Barr as a true libertarian. In fact, my one libertarian friend has said he's writing in Ron Paul (doesn't matter anyway since we live in Illinois which will go for Obama no matter what.)

But, yours is a protest vote, so I guess that labeling doesn't matter.

I'm just bitching. I'd never vote Barr. It's a wasted vote as far as I'm concerned. As things are stacking up now, I'm probably voting McCain. It's not that I don't like Obama, but I disagree with him on some very funadmental issues.

Posted: Oct 16 2008 02:05 pm

Actually, you can now comment on people's Facebook statuses. I've been restraining myself thus far.

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Syd Lexia wrote:

A poor effort all around.

All we really learned was that Obama has the Bill Clintonesque ability to calmly smile while he lies through his fucking teeth.

What was he lying about? I always hear people on both sides say this, but provide little support to prove it. It's frankly getting old and predictable to say that the other side is lying.

Joined: Sep 22 2008 Posts: 289

Greg the White wrote:

Syd Lexia wrote:

A poor effort all around.

All we really learned was that Obama has the Bill Clintonesque ability to calmly smile while he lies through his fucking teeth.

What was he lying about? I always hear people on both sides say this, but provide little support to prove it. It's frankly getting old and predictable to say that the other side is lying.

I didn't see the debate, so I don't know about that, but he was certainly lying, or at least giving out false information, when he said that the only five percent of all small businesses make over $250,000 per year, thus qualifying them for a tax increase.

Posted: Oct 16 2008 05:27 pm

the_almighty_spehornoob wrote:

I didn't see the debate, so I don't know about that, but he was certainly lying, or at least giving out false information, when he said that the only five percent of all small businesses make over $250,000 per year, thus qualifying them for a tax increase.

By "make" I'm almost 100% sure he means profit. Revenue - Cost = Profit for those unaware. Which would make his statement accurate. Hell when more than 50% fail, 5% seems gracious.

Joined: Aug 13 2008 Location: Watertown, NY Posts: 131

Quote:

I didn't see the debate, so I don't know about that, but he was certainly lying, or at least giving out false information, when he said that the only five percent of all small businesses make over $250,000 per year, thus qualifying them for a tax increase.

Meh, it depends on how you define small business, and even more on how these small business are structured. Technically speaking, if you do any type of freelance work, then you're a small business. There are about 6 million businesses in the country that employ less than 500 people. That's pretty much the conventional definition. Though my numbers are probably a bit off.

I think the official count of Joe The Plumber shout-outs was around 24. Not to piss off Syd and Cattivo, but there are fairly few Joe The Plumbers in the counry. Joe's looking at about a extra $900 coming out of his $280,000 yearly income. If that. Marxist? Maybe, but hardly enough to keep him from hiring help, growing his business, and realizing the American dream.

Posted: Oct 16 2008 06:29 pm

mjl1783 wrote:

There are about 6 million businesses in the country that employ less than 500 people. That's pretty much the conventional definition. Though my numbers are probably a bit off.

I'm gonna have to say you stop being a small bussiness around 100-200 employees. 500 is definitly a medium business.

Posted: Oct 16 2008 07:15 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

A poor effort all around.

All we really learned was that Obama has the Bill Clintonesque ability to calmly smile while he lies through his fucking teeth.

Uh, what? Were you watching the same debate? McCain spent so much time talking about some phantom "close connection" between Obama and Ayers that he basically boiled his campaign into "Obama hangs out with terrorist and doesn't love America". Then he turns around when some whacko calls Obama an "Arab" at a town hall and says how good a man Obama is. McCain spent the whole debate playing "jab Obama with Ayers, and then slide into the economy while Obama refutes the charge". It's hard to have a debate in the actual sense of the word when McCain can't focus on an issue long enough to make sense about it.

Listen, either Obama's "pallin' around with terrorists" or he's a "good American family man". McCain can't make up his mind and he could not have POSSIBLY convinced anyone who saw the debate last night that he is genuine.

Joined: Aug 13 2008 Location: Watertown, NY Posts: 131

I don't make up the definitions, Douchey, they are what they are, and they're widely accepted for a reason. Compared to, say, Wal-Mart, 500 employees is a very small business. The hospital that employs me is the largest employer in my area, and they have about 2,000 workers. Still pretty small when you consider the size of the mega corporations.

Another point of interest:

Joe The Plumber admitted to ABC this morning that he wanted to buy the business for 250 or 280 thousand dollars, not that he actually expected to make that much. In fact, he'll probably be eligible for a tax under either man's proposals.

So does this now make Joe The Plumber one of the lazy American class warriors looking for a handout, or is he still the hard-working everyman who's success Obama wants to punish?

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Douche pretty much nailed it. Earnings and profit are different things. Your average business doesn't make more than 250,000 in profits. Mixing perception of profits and earnings has been one of the things that have kept republicans on the capital gains cut road for a while now.

Yeah, when people hear Obama talking about oil companies and the billions in profits, people automatically assume that that's the earnings of the industry, and by taxing those profits we're taking money away from their workers and making fuel more expensive. Profits are actually what a company makes after all of their wages and bills are paid. There's also the argument that:

1)They (the companies) need more money to build more refineries (decreasing fuel cost)

2)They need more money to "drill, baby drill (Driving down costs)."

These facts are negated by the fact that any attempts to encourage the building of new refineries are ignored by the oil companies (as well as the fact the companies have actually REDUCED the number of refineries in this country since the last one was built), and that the companies own plenty of fertile oil lands offshore. These two factors actually make it so that fuel is more expensive, and since that is helping the collapse of the economy by causing people to spend more of their money on oil instead of goods, then I really don't have a problem with asking for a little more from them.

Also, notice how McCain responded to the "He's an Arab" lady by saying "No, he's a good family man." As if the two are mutually exclusive.

Also, how many banks are going to want to buy bad mortgages, and how many people are making enough cash for a capital gains cut to make a dent in anything?

Joined: Aug 13 2008 Location: Watertown, NY Posts: 131

Quote:

Douche pretty much nailed it. Earnings and profit are different things. Your average business doesn't make more than 250,000 in profits. Mixing perception of profits and earnings has been one of the things that have kept republicans on the capital gains cut road for a while now.

Yeah, where would anyone get the wild idea that Obama wants to increase taxes on revenues? Oh yeah! From Obama.

"if your revenue is above 250 – then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. It is true that from 250 up – from 250 – 300 or so, so for that additional amount, you’d go from 36 to 39%"

Quote:

Yeah, when people hear Obama talking about oil companies and the billions in profits, people automatically assume that that's the earnings of the industry, and by taxing those profits we're taking money away from their workers and making fuel more expensive. Profits are actually what a company makes after all of their wages and bills are paid.

And if you knew your taxes were going up, your incentive to not dick your employees and customers out of more money to make up for it would be...

Quote:

These facts are negated by the fact that any attempts to encourage the building of new refineries are ignored by the oil companies (as well as the fact the companies have actually REDUCED the number of refineries in this country since the last one was built), and that the companies own plenty of fertile oil lands offshore. These two factors actually make it so that fuel is more expensive,

I think the fact that people decided they were going to continue driving SUVs, or RVs, or towing SUVs with RVs, or refusing to use public transportation despite a 30-year heads up that our demand for oil was rapidly outpacing our ability to get it out of the ground may have had a little to do with oil prices being where they are.

Posted: Oct 16 2008 08:29 pm

S. McCracken wrote:

Uh, what? Were you watching the same debate? McCain spent so much time talking about some phantom "close connection" between Obama and Ayers that he basically boiled his campaign into "Obama hangs out with terrorist and doesn't love America". Then he turns around when some whacko calls Obama an "Arab" at a town hall and says how good a man Obama is. McCain spent the whole debate playing "jab Obama with Ayers, and then slide into the economy while Obama refutes the charge". It's hard to have a debate in the actual sense of the word when McCain can't focus on an issue long enough to make sense about it.

Listen, either Obama's "pallin' around with terrorists" or he's a "good American family man". McCain can't make up his mind and he could not have POSSIBLY convinced anyone who saw the debate last night that he is genuine.

I'm not saying McCain did a great job or that he didn't potentially misrepresent things. The debate in general was awkward and terrible. All I'm saying is that Obama will most likely win because he's able to lie more gracefully.

Posted: Oct 16 2008 08:51 pm

Just so I'm not completely in the dark, who was this Joe the Plumber they kept talking about last night?

Posted: Oct 16 2008 09:24 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

I'm not saying McCain did a great job or that he didn't potentially misrepresent things. The debate in general was awkward and terrible. All I'm saying is that Obama will most likely win because he's able to lie more gracefully.

I'm more wondering what you think was so egregious a lie that made you characterize Obama as "[lying] through his fucking teeth". It is indeed true that half the points McCain brings up about Obama's tax plan have been disputed by nearly every reputable news outfit. The "close" Ayers connection McCain keeps pushing has been debunked by most pundits from his own party.

Listen, there's a reason (or reasons) why it has been generally accepted that Obama won all 3 debates and a reason why he's up 8 points with less than 3 weeks to go. It's convenient for McCain's supporters to subtly suggest, through the fact that they keep talking about how much Obama is lying in order to win, that most Democrats aren't smart enough to figure out what's true and what's false and will blindly vote for "their" candidate.

I would submit that the fact of the matter is that McCain, in pushing all of these attacks that have been debunked by people who actually know what they're talking about, shows that people are just looking for a reason NOT to vote for Obama that isn't "because he's a black, Muslim, liberal, free-wheelin', kiss-stealin', tax-raisin', baby-killing terrorist son of a bitch". WOOOOOOOOO! And the fact that McCain is pulling the same shit Bush did to HIM in South Carolina 8 years ago makes me ashamed to say I voted for him in 2000.

The fact is that McCain is going to lose the election because people see him as an opportunist, someone who was willing to sell himself out in order to smear his opponent once things went south.

Docinsano's Channel 63 · Posted: Oct 16 2008 09:33 pm

enshinkarateman wrote:

Yes, I'm voting for Obama, but in all honesty, I see him as the lesser of two evils.

I can agree with that statement. If a third party candidate had a chance, I'd vote for a third party.

Title: Alexz Aficionado Joined: May 21 2008 Posts: 2889

I'm writing in to vote for Joe the Plumber. He sounds legit.

Posted: Oct 16 2008 10:33 pm

I'm voting for Bob the Builder.

Can we fix the economy? Yes we can!

Docinsano's Channel 63 · Posted: Oct 16 2008 10:54 pm

I'd vote for Word Girl. She is the hottest public television cartoon actress.