Now it's time to go back to three principles. There are three options:
Do nothing.
Bailout (a la Paulson)
Nationalization (a la Sweden 1992)
Do nothing was last tried in 1929-1932. The result was called the Great Depression.
Let's not do that again. Let's decide between bailout and nationalization.
Nationalization has the best chance of avoiding large losses and possibly even making money for the taxpayer. And it is the best way to deal with the moral hazard problem.
It might work like this. Congress:
* grants the Federal Reserve Board the power to take any financial firm whatsoever with liabilities and capital of more than $25 billion that is not well capitalized into conservatorship
* requires the Federal Reserve Board to liquidate any financial firm in its conservatorship when it judges that the firm is insolvent (paying off in full or not paying off in full the liabilities of the firm at its discretion), unless
the Federal Reserve Board finds that preservation as a going concern is in the interest of the taxpayer, in which case Congress
* grants the Federal Reserve Board the power to transform equity stakes in the firm into junior preferred stock at par value and then transfer ownership and custody of the firm to the Treasury
* requires the Federal Reserve to terminate conservatorship if the firm becomes well-capitalized once again.
In addition, Congress:
* grants the Treasury the power to issue up to $500 billion of troubled asset redemption bonds, the proceeds of which are then to be loaned to the Federal Reserve to be used to cover the liabilities of those liquidated firms that the Federal Reserve judges it is in the interest of the taxpayer to have their liabilities paid off in full.
Paulson had his shot. It's time for the Democrats to pass a nationalization in the taxpayers' interest bill and dare Bush to veto it. If he does, then announce that the congress will pass it again the day after the election. And if he vetoes it again, announce that Congress will pass it yet again on January 21, 2009.
"Life is a waste of time. Time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
Tebor
Moderator
Title: Master of the Universe
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 6088
Posted:
Sep 30 2008 08:44 pm
Times like this I'm glad I'm not president*.
If people's retirement funds go down, mortgages are completely lost, etc. there will be a flux of unemployment and a new movement to kick illegals out. Not all at once, but I know this issue will be raised again in the coming months and how it relates to the economy.
* But I am still Master of the Universe.
"If you will not tell me, I will hurt people!!!" -Nuclear Man
"Do you hear? The alpha and the omega. Death and rebirth. And as you die, so will I be reborn!" - Skeletor
8341 unread forum updates since I left (2/7/14)... Uh-oh.
Rycona
Moderator
Title: The Maestro
Joined: Nov 01 2005
Location: Away from Emerald Weapon
Posts: 2815
Posted:
Oct 01 2008 02:48 pm
Tebor wrote:
Times like this I'm glad I'm not president*.
Times like this I'm not glad George W. is president. Granted, there are probably a completely different set of people working on these problems, I mean, how much would he know about this? He can't even remember the names of countries, and he supposed to know the subtle play of an economic infrastructure? What bill gets to him, he'll pretend to be smart and ask his advisers, his advisers will tell him whether to veto or not depending on who is paying them more, and then he'll do it and go cuddle with his Texas bear after a long day of signing things with fake advice.
RIP Hacker.
Ice2SeeYou
Title: Sexual Tyrannosaurus
Joined: Sep 28 2008
Location: South of Heaven
Posts: 1761
Posted:
Oct 01 2008 03:13 pm
Tebor wrote:
Times like this I'm glad I'm not president*.
If people's retirement funds go down, mortgages are completely lost, etc. there will be a flux of unemployment and a new movement to kick illegals out. Not all at once, but I know this issue will be raised again in the coming months and how it relates to the economy.
* But I am still Master of the Universe.
I would think the Master of the Universe is too busy dealing with Unicron and Frieza to worry about our small intergalactic fiefdom. But I'm sure our local chieftan W can handle it.
Sydlexia.com - Where miserable bastards meet to call each other retards.
Kubo
Joined: Aug 24 2005
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Posts: 1062
Posted:
Oct 01 2008 04:24 pm
Rycona wrote:
What bill gets to him, he'll pretend to be smart and ask his advisers, his advisers will tell him whether to veto or not depending on who is paying them more, and then he'll do it and go cuddle with his Texas bear after a long day of signing things with fake advice.
Much like every other president who ever had a team of advisers. Which is all of them. 'Cept the Texas bear part, which I'm a little confused about.
Thou, because I am wroth, be not dismayed, for I shall win the strife, whoever circle round within for the defence. This their insolence is not new, for of old they used it at a less secret gate, which still is found without a bolt. Above it thou didst see the dead inscription; and already on this side of it
descends the steep, passing without escort through the circles,
One such that by him the city shall be opened to us.
Rycona
Moderator
Title: The Maestro
Joined: Nov 01 2005
Location: Away from Emerald Weapon
Posts: 2815
Posted:
Oct 02 2008 01:52 am
Kubo wrote:
Rycona wrote:
What bill gets to him, he'll pretend to be smart and ask his advisers, his advisers will tell him whether to veto or not depending on who is paying them more, and then he'll do it and go cuddle with his Texas bear after a long day of signing things with fake advice.
Much like every other president who ever had a team of advisers. Which is all of them. 'Cept the Texas bear part, which I'm a little confused about.
I was thinking of him curling up with a teddy bear when he went to bed, except I turned it into a Texas bear... just a primitive insult on top of the... uh... other primitive insults.
RIP Hacker.
Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
Posted:
Oct 02 2008 12:29 pm
Don't worry, the government is always the best solution to our problems!
DarkMaze
Joined: Feb 24 2006
Posts: 2578
Posted:
Oct 02 2008 12:31 pm
Holy cow, welcome back Cattivo!
TheRoboSleuth
Title: Sleuth Mark IV
Joined: Aug 08 2006
Location: The Gritty Future
Posts: 2739
Posted:
Oct 02 2008 01:36 pm
Cattivo wrote:
Don't worry, the government is always the best solution to our problems!
Cause businesses left alone will do just fine correct?
Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
Posted:
Oct 02 2008 02:08 pm
Ethical oversight is always needed, but we can't look towards government as the panacea to all of our problems. Usually, it just makes things worse.
And thanks for the welcome DM
Kubo
Joined: Aug 24 2005
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Posts: 1062
Posted:
Oct 02 2008 05:00 pm
Cattivo wrote:
Ethical oversight is always needed, but we can't look towards government as the panacea to all of our problems. Usually, it just makes things worse.
Welcome back, Cattivo!
Now we're two.
Thou, because I am wroth, be not dismayed, for I shall win the strife, whoever circle round within for the defence. This their insolence is not new, for of old they used it at a less secret gate, which still is found without a bolt. Above it thou didst see the dead inscription; and already on this side of it
descends the steep, passing without escort through the circles,
One such that by him the city shall be opened to us.
Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
Posted:
Oct 02 2008 05:31 pm
Indeed, welcome back.
Didn't Reagan say something like big government isn't the answer to our problems, it's the cause?
"Life is a waste of time. Time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
Tebor
Moderator
Title: Master of the Universe
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 6088
Posted:
Oct 02 2008 09:38 pm
Cattivo, many happy hellos. May you stick around.
"If you will not tell me, I will hurt people!!!" -Nuclear Man
"Do you hear? The alpha and the omega. Death and rebirth. And as you die, so will I be reborn!" - Skeletor
8341 unread forum updates since I left (2/7/14)... Uh-oh.
Rycona
Moderator
Title: The Maestro
Joined: Nov 01 2005
Location: Away from Emerald Weapon
Posts: 2815
Posted:
Oct 03 2008 01:38 am
Welcome back. ^_^ Just like old times... *tear*
RIP Hacker.
S. McCracken
Moderator
Title: Enforcer
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2171
Posted:
Oct 03 2008 11:45 am
McCain voted for the bailout bill filled with pork...and then railed against all the pork. This guy really is fucking lost.
Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
Posted:
Oct 03 2008 01:48 pm
Thanks for the welcomes guys, especially the batman one. Nice one Kubo.
Syd Lexia wrote:
Didn't Reagan say something like big government isn't the answer to our problems, it's the cause?
I believe I used to have that in my signature -
"Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.
Kubo
Joined: Aug 24 2005
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Posts: 1062
Posted:
Oct 03 2008 04:42 pm
Cattivo wrote:
Thanks for the welcomes guys, especially the batman one. Nice one Kubo.
Thought you'd dig it. Glad you got the reference. Glad to have you back... as you no doubt know, it's tough being one of the lone proponents of the right. Or at least attempting to counteract the Obama-mania.
Thou, because I am wroth, be not dismayed, for I shall win the strife, whoever circle round within for the defence. This their insolence is not new, for of old they used it at a less secret gate, which still is found without a bolt. Above it thou didst see the dead inscription; and already on this side of it
descends the steep, passing without escort through the circles,
One such that by him the city shall be opened to us.
I said it earlier tonight and I'll post it here, I have a terrible feeling they are only going to make it worse with that money. I have no faith in any of the people who are going to be handling it.
"If you will not tell me, I will hurt people!!!" -Nuclear Man
"Do you hear? The alpha and the omega. Death and rebirth. And as you die, so will I be reborn!" - Skeletor
8341 unread forum updates since I left (2/7/14)... Uh-oh.
Blackout
Title: Captain Oblivious
Joined: Sep 01 2007
Location: That Rainy State
Posts: 10376
Posted:
Oct 04 2008 10:33 am
I feel the need to inject some humor into this serious thread.
Continue serious discussion.
TheRoboSleuth
Title: Sleuth Mark IV
Joined: Aug 08 2006
Location: The Gritty Future
Posts: 2739
Posted:
Oct 07 2008 03:06 pm
Kubo wrote:
Cattivo wrote:
Thanks for the welcomes guys, especially the batman one. Nice one Kubo.
Thought you'd dig it. Glad you got the reference. Glad to have you back... as you no doubt know, it's tough being one of the lone proponents of the right. Or at least attempting to counteract the Obama-mania.
