Personally, I preferred 3rd/3.5 over 2nd edition simply because it unified and simplified a lot of stuff. The more I've read regarding 4th however, the more it seems they're trying to compete or at least be as interesting as MMOs, seeing as most spells/abilities are either instantaneous or last 1 round. I'm still willing to give 4th a looksee though.

Don't ask how but I managed to procure pdfs of all 3 core books for 4th edition. I'm going through them bit by bit and will let you guys know what's different compared to 3rd.

Ability Scores. You're given the choice to either take a 16 and 14-10 and put them where you want, starting with five 10s and an 8 for a point-buy system, or rolling your stats the proper way with an addendum you can't use the last method if you're going to use the character for an RPGA game.

Alignment. Dropped down to 5 options: Good, Lawful Good, Evil, Chaotic Evil, and Unaligned. Of course "Good" is just Neutral Good, "Evil" is just Neutral Evil, and Unaligned is just Neutral.

Starting Gold. 100 gp regardless of class.

Deities. Avandra (Good goddess of change), Bahamut (Lawful Good dragon god), Correllon (Unaligned god of fey and arcana), Erathis (Unaligned goddess of civilization), Ioun (just like the magic stones, Unaligned goddess of prophecy, knowledge, and skill), Kord (Unaligned god of battle and storms), Melora (Unaligned goddess of the wilderness and the sea), Moradin (Lawful Good god of creation), Pelor (Good god of the sun and Summer), The Raven Queen (Unaligned goddess of death), Sehanine (Unaligned god of the moon and Autumn).
Furthermore, it mentions a character can worship a Chaotic/Evil diety but that doing such a thing means walking a fine line and says that information on such deities is covered in the DMG (Mentioning Asmodeus, Bane, Grummsh, Lolth, Tiamat, Vecna and two newcomers: Torog the evil god of the Underdark and Zehir the evil god of darkness, poison, and assassins.)

Languages. A lot less both in spoken and written form.
Common is its own language and script, which is also the script for Goblin.
Deep Speech (think Underdark residents) and Elven share the same script claled Rellanic.
Draconic is called Iokharic when written as script.
Dwarven and Giant used the same script, called Davek.
Primordial (spoken by elemental beings) and Abyssal both use a script called Barazhad.
The alignment tongues from the past edition (Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, etc.) are called Supernal in both written and spoken form.

Attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks are now made as:
1d20 + (1/2 character level) + Relevant ability score modifier + any other modifiers.

At 4th level and every four levels thereafter you increase 2 of your ability scores by 1 point apiece. At 11th and 21st level you can take a "paragon path" and "epic destiny" at the respective levels. Feats are gained at 1st level, every even-numbered level, and also at 11th and 21st level. There're only 17 skills now, several of which were either axed or fused with others into a single skill (such as Perception being a merger of Listen and Spot). Reaching 2nd level requires 1K of XP just like in 3rd, but 30th level requires 1M.

I'll have more to post in time (at least if anyone's interested).

In short, 4th Edition is a seperate beast. The product of what looks like an MMO or Console RPG being slapped into paper and ink.

DarknessDeku wrote:

I heard you can play DnD 4 online. For that I am happy.

That first sentence deserves a big asterisk:

To get the best effect, you have to pay a subscription fee of $14.95 a month to D&D Insider (but you can create an account with them for free) for the D&D Game Table.

"The D&D Game Table is an online 3D environment that allows you to play the D&D Roleplaying Game with friends over the Internet -- twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. The D&D Game Table allows players to connect anytime and anywhere, features a fully integrated Voice-Over IP as well as text chat, and is designed to simulate the tabletop game experience as much as possible."

"You enter the D&D Game Table Lobby as either a player or a Dungeon Master (DM). You can then chat (text or voice) with other players in the Lobby, set up a game, or join another game. While in the Lobby, you can search for games of a specific level, by campaign setting, or by other criteria."

That being said, they do allow you to build your own dungeon maps and such for free. There's also a character visualizer program for use on said maps, allowing you to come relatively close to what you've got in your head as to what your character looks like, then put it on the D&D Game Table.

Also, you don't need to pay the subscription feee to join D&D Insider, just to run the Game Table application.

As for the game itself, all the customization and versatility of 3.X Edition has gone out the window for the sake of simplicity (at least for now). Every class gets powers that are either instantaneous or last for the duration of an encounter (very much in line with the existing minis game style of play). The game is very combat centric, resulting in a good vibe of the battles will be excellent, but you've got to work a lot harder to make a character truly stand out. As it stands right now, two characters of the same class will likely have 2 or 3 common powers per level.

My current stance on buying into 4th as someone exposed to 2nd and most of 3.X is that I'll wait about a year or two until all the old stuff (druids, monks, barbarians, half-orcs, psionics) comes out and then see if I can create any memorable characters. When that time comes, then I'll buy the books.

One last bit. I've played several online games of D&D. Visualization can sometimes be a problem, but it's nothing a link to the map or monster in question can't fix (with alphanumeric gridding with maps for spacing purposes in combat).

RobotGumshoe wrote:

I've been playing 4.0, and it turns out that published 1st level adventures continue to blow, and blow hard. Dragonborn paladin, cool idea right. But our enemies have been the following, kobolds, kobold slingers, kobold dragonshields, kobold chieftan, one goblin sharpshooter, a gnome arcanist, and a wolf or two. There is exactly zero drama. The adventure doesn't know how to make kobolds the least bit interesting or intimidating. Granted, its kobolds, but come on. We've hade like 6-7 fights with the little buggers. Note the four types of kobolds. This is known in the videogame world as pallete swapping. Not to mention the whole affair has an "Attack of the killer midget" feel to it. You don't die as quick, but fights take forever. Theres a plot involving a cult of the buggers worshipping a dragon, but the dragon doesn't have a real agenda. This is not necessarily representative of the game as a whole. 1st level sucked in every edition. But, its just more of the same. Why should I care, and why should I move on?

You're playing Keep on the Shadowfell or whatever it's called right? I hear several of the encounters are poorly rated (to say nothing about the fact that apparently a succubus can TPK better than a red dragon, I mean what the hell man??!!)

After a lot of thought I'm sticking with my 3.5. It's what I know and what I can work with.

Something else that bugs me about the iconic monster types like goblins, zombies, kobolds, etc. is there isn't a single generic entry in 4.0's MM. WOTC has to make like 4 different "classes" of the guys instead of giving me the freedom as a DM to take the base stats of say a goblin, and make it a goblin blackguard with a worg mount.

After constantly hearing about it, I recently downloaded the beta PHB for Pathfinder (a responce by PAIZO Publishing that maybe 3.5 is better with a few slight improvements rather than a completely new edition) and am digging a lot of the things they've done.

Taking a level in your racial favored class gives you the choice between an extra hit point or an extra skill point (Furthermore, they raised the HD for wizards, sorcerers, rogues, and bards by one category too).

Each of the basic races now has two options for favored class and gets +2 to two scores and -2 to one (Half-Orcs get +2 Str and Wis for -2 Int; Half-elves and Humans just get +2 to any one chosen ability score). Each core race also gets a cool little power like Gnomes casting Illusions at +1 caster level or Half-Orcs gaining the daily ability to continue functioning normally for 1 round after being reduced to 0 HP or less.

Synergy bonuses were dropped in favor of giving you a +3 bonus to any skill that's on your class and you put at least 1 rank in. Furthermore, if a PrC requires X ranks of a skill, you need X-3 (minimum 1) to qualify if that skill is a class skill or 2X if it's a crossclass skill (Spellcraft with a Fighter).

Gather Information was subsumed into Diplomacy.
Concentration is now part of Spellcraft
Search, Spot, and Listen were merged into Stealth
Jump and Tumble became Acrobatics
Forgery was combined with another skill for Linguistics
Flight is a new skill, to represent the same sort of prowess that Swim and Ride have.
Use Rope doesn't exist.

Every base class was redesigned enough to make them interesting enough to take up to the full 20 levels.
Barbarian: Raging is now handled like a point system. Starting at 2nd level, you can learn rage powers including things like gaining a bite attack, reroll a Will save, increased DR for 1 round, +1d6 energy damage (any but sonic) to attacks for 1 round, a dodge bonus vs. melee or ranged attacks = barbarian level for 1 round (but not both at the same time), demoralizing Intimidate as a free action, 5 foot knockback when you attack, low-light vision, auto-confirming a crit, negate the penalties of raging for 1 round, darkvision 60', adding your barbarian level to a single attack's damage or attack roll, an extra AoO, heal 1d8+Con mod hit points, rage while fatigued, add your barbarian level to one Strength check or combat maneuver, an extra 10, 20, or 30 feet to your base speed, unleash a panicking howl, or to make one additional attack when taking a full-attack action.

The Paladin also got a major facelift akin to what the Pathfinder Barbarian is like.

The classes that traditionally get a pet/mount (druid, ranger, paladin, sorcerer, wizard, etc.) all gain that as one of two options. For example, the ranger can instead choose to give half his favored enemy bonus to allies within 30 feet for a few rounds instead of gaining a companion, and the wizard can choose to take a bonded object instead of a familiar.

3 things.

1.) Since Knyte made it, maybe rename this thread and make it for D&D, period?

2.) I still haven't moved up to 4th edition (I'm fine with 3.5), but would anyone on here be interested in joining my Ravenloft game I'm running online? So far it's just 2 of my friends who've barely played the game (and never with me). I'm giving them pregenerated characters (with a lot of tweaks to fit their personalities and playing styles) but if you know what to do with 3.5 and/or 3.5 Ravenloft you're welcome to make your own (though I've got a good list of variant rules I'm using).

3.) Stumbled across this and thought I'd share:

http://somehedgehog.livejournal.com/245807.html This is what a gaming group consisting of the current and former presidential candidates of 2008 would sound like.