didnt know if to put this in movies or books or even internets.
at any rate:
Quote:
The existential loneliness that unites Batman and the Joker
A university lecturer in philosophy suggests that Gotham's hero and its worst villain share an unwilling awareness of society's fragility — and a profound isolation from others as a result. We're pretty sure we knew this, but validation is nice.
Ron Novy, a lecturer at the University of Central Arkansas, argues that what Batman and the Joker have in common are formative traumas that highlight how easily order can slip away. Bruce Wayne, of course, saw his parents killed in front of him as a child, thus learning an unwelcome lesson about how peace can be upturned and the law can fail.
Novy draws on Alan Moore's semi-canonical Batman: The Killing Joke to explain how the Joker's experience mirrors Batman's own. In Killing Joke, the man who'll become the Joker is a struggling stand-up comic forced to turn to crime. His pregnant wife dies just before a botched break-in at a chemical plant, where the comedian falls into a vat of chemicals that turn him into a chalk-faced, green-haired ghoul. Seeing his reflection, his mind finally breaks, and a villain is born.
Throughout Killing Joke, the Joker keeps returning to his theory that "one bad day" is all it takes for a morally upright person to access their depraved side. If anyone can sympathize, Novy points out (as have others), it's the prematurely orphaned Bruce Wayne.
That's a ridiculous statement to make, though. Apart from the earliest Batman books and some Elsewheres, there's no way you could call Batman ''depraved''. Sure, Wayne came out of things disturbed and vengeful, but you can't really call it depraved. It seems like this guy just skimmed Killing Joke, because Joker was basically trying to gaslight Jim Gordon into becoming a killer, and yet Gordon never abandoned his principles. Further, considering they've kept Barbara Gordon solidly crippled as Oracle, you can call the book fully canon, regardless as to whether or not Alan Moore felt it should be or not.
I have a very strong opinion on Moore (excellent storyteller but total egomaniac) but I'll save further exposition on that for elsewheres. I will state that I love how he claimed that Blackest Night was pathetic because it was based off of something he'd done across a few page spread thirty years ago (and varied drastically in how it was played out this year, btw).
Guh.
Who likes role-playing games? Me. Way too goddamn much.
SoldierHawk
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Posted:
Dec 08 2009 06:41 am
Well yeah Bats is obviously a disturbed guy. And i agree he and Joker share a similar psychological profile. But he isn`t depraved in the way Joker is-he channeled his insanity into something good for society where Joker channeled his pathology into something destructive and evil.
Here`s the thing though. This is not news to anyone with even a passing interest in the character. I love it when people like that guy announce the `discovery` of something every comic book fan has known for forty years.
William Shakespeare wrote:
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username
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Posted:
Dec 08 2009 11:47 am
SoldierHawk wrote:
Here`s the thing though. This is not news to anyone with even a passing interest in the character. I love it when people like that guy announce the `discovery` of something every comic book fan has known for forty years.
that was my initial impression as well
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Black Zarak
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Posted:
Dec 08 2009 01:37 pm
Not only something that every fan has noticed, but that even writers of various Batman series have noticed and written into the friggin' comics directly! The whole "The Joker's mania is not that different from my own" speech is one Bats' favorite soliloquies, when The Joker isn't giving him the "We're not so different you and I" speech that is...
"Let that be a lesson to you, your family and everyone you've ever known..."
"Thanks to denial, I'm immortal!"
FNJ
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Posted:
Dec 08 2009 02:20 pm
aeonic wrote:
That's a ridiculous statement to make, though. Apart from the earliest Batman books and some Elsewheres, there's no way you could call Batman ''depraved''. Sure, Wayne came out of things disturbed and vengeful, but you can't really call it depraved.
running around in spandex beating the shit out of people isn't depraved?
SoldierHawk
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Posted:
Dec 08 2009 03:04 pm
^ No. Depraved implies bad or evil. Batman channels his psychosis into something good. Therefore, while he may be nuts, he's not what I would call a depraved nut.
"Let that be a lesson to you, your family and everyone you've ever known..."
"Thanks to denial, I'm immortal!"
AtmanRyu
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Posted:
Dec 08 2009 07:27 pm
You have to keep on mind also that said characters have been around since the mid 1940's and throughout the years gone through countless personality transitions (i.e. writers), from broody and cold blooded, to goofy and campy, to over the top psychotic, and so many shades in the middle:
In all fairness, said article brings some valid points (points that any Batman fan knows already, but still...), however, it seriously needs to acknowledge Batman's history as a whole, not just one story or two that just happen to fit your thesis, otherwise you'd get another professor accusing Batman of encouraging pedophilia just because they happen to read Frank Miller's Batman All Star.
^ No. Depraved implies bad or evil. Batman channels his psychosis into something good. Therefore, while he may be nuts, he's not what I would call a depraved nut.
there was a comic where he ran around the streets with a sheet wrapped around his face, talking to himself because he thought bat-mite was with him.
pineapple
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Posted:
Dec 08 2009 11:47 pm
I've come to notice that you post a lot of news stories. Not that that's bad just interesting.
SoldierHawk
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Posted:
Dec 08 2009 11:49 pm
FNJ wrote:
SoldierHawk wrote:
^ No. Depraved implies bad or evil. Batman channels his psychosis into something good. Therefore, while he may be nuts, he's not what I would call a depraved nut.
there was a comic where he ran around the streets with a sheet wrapped around his face, talking to himself because he thought bat-mite was with him.
Even then, that's insane, not depraved. Unless he was planning to hurt people while he did it.
William Shakespeare wrote:
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none.
Douche McCallister
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Posted:
Dec 08 2009 11:50 pm
He's our resident Anchorman. Minus the Channel 5 news crew.
pineapple
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Posted:
Dec 08 2009 11:53 pm
We should be his news crew. We'll deliver the news better than anyone else could.
Dr. Jeebus
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Posted:
Dec 09 2009 02:05 am
BZ beat me to it, but the entire lecture could be replaced by a single "We're not so different, you and I..." speech. Batman gets those a lot. Him, and Brock Samson.
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus
username
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Posted:
Dec 09 2009 11:58 am
pineapple wrote:
I've come to notice that you post a lot of news stories. Not that that's bad just interesting.
i just go to current.com and whenever i see something that catches my eye, i just share it w/the sydlexia community. sometimes i'll get some responses, sometimes i wont.
Klimbatize wrote:
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FNJ
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Posted:
Dec 09 2009 03:51 pm
Dr. Jeebus wrote:
BZ beat me to it, but the entire lecture could be replaced by a single "We're not so different, you and I..." speech. Batman gets those a lot. Him, and Brock Samson.
Kojjiro!
Joined: Feb 16 2008
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Posted:
Dec 09 2009 05:37 pm
I still stick by the word that the Batman: The Animated Series, should be the only one and true canonical personality of Bruce Wayne/Batman.
pineapple
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Posted:
Dec 09 2009 09:50 pm
username wrote:
pineapple wrote:
I've come to notice that you post a lot of news stories. Not that that's bad just interesting.
i just go to current.com and whenever i see something that catches my eye, i just share it w/the sydlexia community. sometimes i'll get some responses, sometimes i wont.
I just checked out that website. It looks like a great place for news and things.
username
Title: owner of a lonely heart
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Posted:
Dec 09 2009 11:55 pm
pineapple wrote:
username wrote:
pineapple wrote:
I've come to notice that you post a lot of news stories. Not that that's bad just interesting.
i just go to current.com and whenever i see something that catches my eye, i just share it w/the sydlexia community. sometimes i'll get some responses, sometimes i wont.
I just checked out that website. It looks like a great place for news and things.
it's not too bad. I like their format since it's easy to follow.
I go to 1up.com for video game news
Klimbatize wrote:
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pineapple
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Posted:
Dec 10 2009 10:13 pm
I remember 1up and EGM. I used to get that magazine all the damn time.
dddddddd
Joined: Jul 06 2008
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Posted:
Dec 10 2009 10:52 pm
didn't batman use to carry a gun and shoot people with it
FNJ
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Posted:
Dec 11 2009 01:29 am
dddddddd wrote:
didn't batman use to carry a gun and shoot people with it
surely that's not depraved.
SoldierHawk
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Posted:
Dec 11 2009 04:14 pm
FNJ wrote:
dddddddd wrote:
didn't batman use to carry a gun and shoot people with it
surely that's not depraved.
Cops and soldiers carry guns and shoot people with them...
William Shakespeare wrote:
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none.
Hacker
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Posted:
Dec 11 2009 09:18 pm
...you people do realize Batman isn't real right?
not like superman, The Flash, and Leonardo Dicaprio who are VERY much real
