Manning is as clutch as it comes and just because he failed in this game doesn't mean his career followed suit.
He is 9-9 in the playoffs and of those 9 losses, 6 or 7 (can't remember the exact number off the top of my head) were up for grabs in the 4th quarter. Hardly as clutch as they come. I will give him credit though and say, he has been much better in the clutch the past couple years, and the Super Bowl loss wasn't all his fault.
Kubo
Joined: Aug 24 2005
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Posts: 1062
Posted:
Feb 14 2010 09:42 pm
Sexton Hardcastle wrote:
What an entertaining Super Bowl. The second half on was great. Words can't describe how happy I am that Manning made that costly interception and couldn't get the ball in the end zone when it mattered at the end of the 4th and was lucky that one pass wasn't an INT. This just helps solidify my Manning Vs. Brady debate. Brady is like a car with manual transmission, while Manning is like a car with an automatic transmission. Sure, the car with the automatic transmission may seem better and easier (better stats), but it's lacking the one thing the manual transmission car has...and that is a clutch! He can't pull it out when it matters most. No clutch.
Tom Brady never makes mistakes. Ever. Especially not on game ending interceptions on drives that could win or tie an important game... oh wait.
In Brady's defense, it was just the 2006 AFC Championship game. Oh. That game was important too? My bad.
EDIT: As an added bonus, Manning led the colts from being down 21-6 (I think) at halftime to win that game (including a TD pass and a rush TD).
Thou, because I am wroth, be not dismayed, for I shall win the strife, whoever circle round within for the defence. This their insolence is not new, for of old they used it at a less secret gate, which still is found without a bolt. Above it thou didst see the dead inscription; and already on this side of it
descends the steep, passing without escort through the circles,
One such that by him the city shall be opened to us.
Sexton Hardcastle
Title: The Supreme Element
Joined: Apr 01 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 514
Posted:
Feb 14 2010 11:16 pm
I never said Brady never ever made a mistake. I just said he was better at not making them than Peyton Manning. Especially in big games. Manning's playoff record, 9-9. Brady's, 12-4.
Kubo
Joined: Aug 24 2005
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Posts: 1062
Posted:
Feb 14 2010 11:47 pm
You're making the same distinction here that every retarded sports columnist has always made when trying to arbitrarily (and impossibly) compare players. Manning isn't 9-9; Brady isn't 12-4. The COLTS are 9-9 in the playoffs under Manning. The PATRIOTS are 12-4 in the playoffs under Brady. Without going back and taking a look at each individual game and seeing who bears responsibility for the wins and losses, it's a lazy and stupid proxy for how good a quarterback is "in the clutch". They're not even stats, they're non-contextual numbers that people can throw at one another as a way to prop up one player over another. Check it out: in playoff games ("games that matter"), Tom Brady's passer rating is 85.5, Manning's is 87.6... in playoff games, Tom Brady's thrown 28TD and 15INT, Manning has thrown 28TD and 19INT)... Tom Brady has thrown for 4100 yards, Manning, 5100. All metrics to measure how good a QB is, and all USELESS outside of context.
Wanna see?
Trent Dilfer is 5-1 in playoff games. He's undefeated in the Super Bowl. At that rate, he's better than both Brady and Manning "in the clutch." In fact, at that rate, I think he's just about on par with Joe Montana... not to mention better than Dan Marino.
With respect to the Super Bowl INT Manning threw- it was half his terrible decision and half Wayne's lazy route (and again on the goal line). That's beside the point anyway... the way Brees was playing, was there ANY doubt at all, that even if the Colts did get in the end zone to tie the game, that Brees wouldn't be able to dink-and-dunk 8-10 yard pass plays down to the 20 for a GW field goal? The main reason the Colts got schooled in the SB wasn't Manning (31-45, 330 yards, a TD, and a BUNCH of clutch first downs), it was Larry Coyer's inability to adjust at halftime to the Saints passing attack. I've never seen the middle of a football field so open.
Long story short, Brady and Manning are both fantastic, all-time QBs. If the game's on the line, even in the "clutch" where their individual stats are essentially identical,, I'll take either one.
Thou, because I am wroth, be not dismayed, for I shall win the strife, whoever circle round within for the defence. This their insolence is not new, for of old they used it at a less secret gate, which still is found without a bolt. Above it thou didst see the dead inscription; and already on this side of it
descends the steep, passing without escort through the circles,
One such that by him the city shall be opened to us.
Sexton Hardcastle
Title: The Supreme Element
Joined: Apr 01 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 514
Posted:
Feb 15 2010 03:07 am
Just let me start off my saying that analogy I made was just a ridiculous dumb joke that I put out there when I thought of it, I had just left my buddies house and no one else was around to make that analogy too, and I thought it was clever. When it comes down to that Super Bowl, if I had to blame the loss on anyone, I would blame it on the coaching.
Kubo wrote:
The COLTS are 9-9 in the playoffs under Manning. The PATRIOTS are 12-4 in the playoffs under Brady. Without going back and taking a look at each individual game and seeing who bears responsibility for the wins and losses, it's a lazy and stupid proxy for how good a quarterback is "in the clutch". They're not even stats, they're non-contextual numbers that people can throw at one another as a way to prop up one player over another.
Agreed. It was a lazy stat for me to throw out there, and isn't a great way for me to prove my point at all. I just happened to know it off the top of my head. I would have to look up the box score for each individual playoff game they have had to prove it, and I didn't feel like doing that. You're also right in saying it was team wins, and not Brady/Manning wins...BUT, let's face it. Quarterbacks affect the outcome of the game more than any other position on the field and that playoff record of Manning's (whether it is entirely his fault or not), does come back to hurt him to a degree. When people are talking about all time greats, they will talk about Montana, Elway, etc. Marino is rarely brought up during these discussions because he never won a Super Bowl, wasn't able to "win the big games", despite his stats being amazing. That is the main point I was making with the playoff record statement, but you are right, it isn't a concrete argument and is a lazy stat. Perhaps just as lazy as using one YouTube video to prove a point
Kubo wrote:
With respect to the Super Bowl INT Manning threw- it was half his terrible decision and half Wayne's lazy route (and again on the goal line). That's beside the point anyway... the way Brees was playing, was there ANY doubt at all, that even if the Colts did get in the end zone to tie the game, that Brees wouldn't be able to dink-and-dunk 8-10 yard pass plays down to the 20 for a GW field goal?
Agreed, blaming that lose entirely on Manning is like blaming that Vikings loss in the NFC Championship entirely on Favre, which is stupid.
Kubo wrote:
Long story short, Brady and Manning are both fantastic, all-time QBs. If the game's on the line, even in the "clutch" where their individual stats are essentially identical,, I'll take either one.
Again, agreed. They are both some of the greatest QBs of all time, no debate. When it comes to the game being on the line though, I would take Brady over Manning because I really do think he is better with the pressure on, although I wouldn't complain if I were stuck with Manning. He's shown time and time again he is great with the pressure on (as much as it pains me to admit that), which was something he didn't do at the beginning of the his career. Really, I agree with basically everything you said, my first post was just a half assed joke and my Manning bashing was just a post Super Bowl high I was experiencing. The Colts are my least favorite team, and really, how often are Manning and The Colts down so I can celebrate? I had to take advantage! I do have to ask though, what is your favorite NFL team? I see you're form Jersey, so I'm guessing...Jets?
Kubo
Joined: Aug 24 2005
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Posts: 1062
Posted:
Feb 15 2010 02:12 pm
Sexton Hardcastle wrote:
I do have to ask though, what is your favorite NFL team? I see you're form Jersey, so I'm guessing...Jets?
So this'll be fun for you to know .
My favorite team, even being from NJ, is Indianapolis. It may be a dumb reason to pick a favorite team, but I always liked picking Indianapolis in Tecmo Super Bowl when I was young, so they sort of stuck . Couple that with the fact that I enjoyed watching Manning play at Tennessee and I've dug the Colts for a while.
So as it should now be painfully clear... I am still upset over the Super Bowl .
My defense of Manning mainly stems from the sports media's OMG HE'S THE BEST EVER OMG HE'S THE BIGGEST CHOKE ARTIST EVER dance in the matter of 48 hours. I think someone's "legacy" is never determined until years after they are done playing. In that respect, both Brady and Manning (who I am confident will both be counted among the top 10 QBs of all time when it's said and done) still have a lot of legacy-positioning to do.
Still... my least favorite team... New England. So I think we're pretty much football enemies Sexton . We can bond over one thing though- "Fuck the Chargers."
Thou, because I am wroth, be not dismayed, for I shall win the strife, whoever circle round within for the defence. This their insolence is not new, for of old they used it at a less secret gate, which still is found without a bolt. Above it thou didst see the dead inscription; and already on this side of it
descends the steep, passing without escort through the circles,
One such that by him the city shall be opened to us.
Kubo
Joined: Aug 24 2005
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Posts: 1062
Posted:
Feb 15 2010 02:18 pm
Sexton Hardcastle wrote:
When people are talking about all time greats, they will talk about Montana, Elway,
Funny thing is... Elway lost three Super Bowls before he won one. Just goes to show how quickly a dude's reputation can change
Thou, because I am wroth, be not dismayed, for I shall win the strife, whoever circle round within for the defence. This their insolence is not new, for of old they used it at a less secret gate, which still is found without a bolt. Above it thou didst see the dead inscription; and already on this side of it
descends the steep, passing without escort through the circles,
One such that by him the city shall be opened to us.
I do have to ask though, what is your favorite NFL team? I see you're form Jersey, so I'm guessing...Jets?
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