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Posted: Feb 02 2009 07:22 pm

All this talk of school recently in this forum started reminding me of my own philosophies about teaching. A couple weeks ago I was discussing with a friend about how in my experience teachers were the biggest whiners, and that I've never met a poor teacher in my life, to which I was assaulted with Ice cubes by a nearby table of teachers. So anyway, America's school system sucks for the most part, so here's my propositions to help both teachers and students get more from their job/education.

1. Statistics show, that the US does just fine until the hr. High level, then we kind of just fall off the boat. My feeling is that it's because high school teachers go through the exact college curriculum as a jr high or grade school teacher. This is obviously not enough. So, for more pay of course, I say they change the requirements to be a high school teacher either by requiring a masters degree, or a specialized college curriculum.

2. Remove Tenure. I had too many high school teachers who have been leeching the system for 25+ years, never teaching shit, but never getting fired, because tenure makes it far to difficult to get rid of these parasites. I am all for job security, but not so much as to where you don't even have to worry about DOING YOUR JOB to sustain employment.

3. Incentive. Offer teachers a reason to excell. Give them bonuses based on exit tests and how well their children perform as compared to their given level. (obviously the advanced classes are going to do better than the general) Make it some sort of competition.

Well, I know I had more, but this is all I can think of right now. So what are your thoughts on how to improve our schools. I know I kind of made them in to a corporate structure, but I don't think that anybody disagrees that money is one of the biggest motivators to the majority of people to persuade them to excel at their jobs.

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Feb 02 2009 07:49 pm

Tenure does make it hard to get rid of bad teachers, but it also makes it much easier to get rid of good ones as well. There needs to be some degree of job security, it's really only one of the perks of the job. I think it needs to be changed somehow, but not eliminated...maybe make it conditional upon class performance or the like.

My ideas:

1) Pay teachers more. They don't make nearly enough, and work several unpaid hours preparing for class, as well as spending their own money on classroom supplies.

2) Change the hours of school. Young children are more alert and active in the morning, teenagers are more alert and active in the afternoon. So why do the teens start at 7 and the kids at 9?

3) Extend the school day by an hour. Use this time for "extra" activities. This would be an ideal time for extracurricular activities, perhaps some teachers could hold special classes or lectures on non-standard subjects for those who are interested, or students could just do homework or meet with teachers. This time should NOT be used for sports practice or the like (while it's important, athletics shouldn't cut into academics), but anything else academic related should be fine. This has another advantage: it keeps kids off the streets another hour until the parents come home.

4) Speaking of parents, keep them the fuck AWAY FROM THE TEACHERS. If you don't like your kid's grade, talk with the kid. If you don't like what they teach, talk with the school board. If you want to know how your child is doing in class, THEN talk to the teacher. But do NOT, under any circumstances, tell the teacher how to do their job, demand a grade be changed, tell them what or what not to teach, ask them for favors for their kids, or try and get them fired or sue them simply because they told you to go screw when they wouldn't change Little Johnny's grade from the D he earned to a B.

Posted: Feb 02 2009 07:50 pm

Where I got my B.Ed., there were indeed separate courses for Elementary, Jr. High, and Sr. High teachers.

Posted: Feb 02 2009 07:53 pm

Valdronius wrote:

Where I got my B.Ed., there were indeed separate courses for Elementary, Jr. High, and Sr. High teachers.

As far as I know, the only course that is any different is child development, and that is for early elementary school teachers. Also, your Canadian.

Posted: Feb 02 2009 08:18 pm

The problem with performance-based bonuses is that the money has to come from somewhere, and schools are publicly funded. Most schools are already under-funded, and taxpayers don't want to put more money into the school system because it means higher taxes. In this economy especially, people are more worried about lining their pockets than whether or not their children are getting a good education. It's fucking ridiculous.

As for getting rid of tenure, good fucking luck. Teachers are unionized, and they're arguably the only union that still has any clout. And the unions will never agree to get rid of tenure.

Posted: Feb 02 2009 08:27 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

The problem with performance-based bonuses is that the money has to come from somewhere, and schools are publicly funded. Most schools are already under-funded, and taxpayers don't want to put more money into the school system because it means higher taxes. In this economy especially, people are more worried about lining their pockets than whether or not their children are getting a good education. It's fucking ridiculous.

As for getting rid of tenure, good fucking luck. Teachers are unionized, and they're arguably the only union that still has any clout. And the unions will never agree to get rid of tenure.

Yeah, If only there were a way to get public schools to work like private schools. I think we get what we deserve in a sense. We don't want to pay for education because most people that float through school enjoy a decent middle class living. I could think of about a billion things we could do here in California to reduce spending and allow for more school spending. Our prisons are over crowded with minor drug offenders, in a war witch the DEA ADMITS it cannot win (in regards to cannabis) so I say if you can't beat em, join em. Make it a taxable commodity, and release all the people we're spending a fortune to keep in prison for minor drug charges.

I don't know, private entities almost always run better than their government counterpart, but I don't see america every going away from the public school system.

Posted: Feb 02 2009 08:37 pm

Or.... the government could make all drug offenses punishable by death with trials taking place the day after apprehension and last chance appeals taking place directly after the trial. Convicted criminals will be dismembered with a hatchet, because it's cheaper than injection or execution, and their assets will be seized by the government and added to public coffers. Not only will this give the government more money to fix our schools, it will also help curb unemployment.

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Feb 02 2009 08:39 pm

Quote:

I don't know, private entities almost always run better than their government counterpart,

The only thing I've ever seen run worse than a public entity is a private entity mandated by government law. Which is what schools would be if privatized.

Posted: Feb 02 2009 10:35 pm

I don't think getting rid of tenure is the answer. It makes teaching things like politics a very dicey proposition. Teachers would literally have to not discuss current events for fear of showing a bias. That's why it was created in the first place. Now that said, I DO agree that some teachers work the system to no end. I don't think ending tenure is the solution there, though. (Not to mention job security is one of the only attractions of the job right now...and even that's going down the shitter. My mom's a high school teacher, and there's at least a 50% chance she doesn't get a paycheck this month thanks to the state's budget shortfall.)

Performance based bonuses are dangerous, dangerous, DANGEROUS. Especially if you link them to standardized test scores. If you honestly want to know what's killing our educational system, its standardized tests. Not because there's one, its because there's about six or seven now that kids have to pass (or that we tell them they have to pass.) Teachers are so roped in to teaching *to the test* and making sure they know *that precise material* and *that question format* that there's not much room at all for creativity, in curriculum or assignments.

Posted: Feb 02 2009 11:15 pm

Standardized tests as a graduation requirement are indeed fucking awful and are destroying our schools.

Posted: Feb 02 2009 11:20 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

Standardized tests as a graduation requirement are indeed fucking awful and are destroying our schools.

Not just to graduate though. Things like (in California--I don't know the equivalent for other states) the CST are almost worse. Because low scores affect the school as a whole, and don't impact the individual. So you have tons of bright kids throwing the test and bubbling argyle sock patters because they don't give a shit. But the schools have no leverage to get them to perform at potential, because the scores aren't even reported until the next year. They don't even go on their transcripts. Rolling Eyes

Sorry if I'm being all preachy and annoying about this. We just had a team leaders meeting in school today discussing this exact issue and is driving me crazy lol.

Posted: Feb 02 2009 11:28 pm

In MA, we have one thing MCAS which is both a school evaluation and a graduation requirement. I got out before it was a grad requirement; we were the first test class.

Before that, we had Iowa tests. They didn't effect the school at all, they were just an aptitude test. Dunno if they still do that. I liked those.

I also like the SATs.

But MCAS = Hitler.

Posted: Feb 02 2009 11:32 pm

I agree the SATs aren't bad. They're established and, while certainly not perfect, they do their job pretty well.

I LOVE the school assessment/graduation requirement put together. If we had that out here in CA, things would be a lot easier. Right now we have two (of many) separate tests--the CHASSE, for graduation evaluation, and the CST, for school evaluation. Kids don't give a shit about the CST, so the school rating suffers, which is bad for everyone in the long term.

I can understand why you wouldn't like something like the MCAS. As a student, I'd probably loathe it to. Its still a step up from what we have here right now though, and until someone finds some way other than standardized tests to assess both students and schools...I think we're gonna be stuck with them for a while. :/

Posted: Feb 03 2009 12:04 am

My school has been practicing for the PSSA (Pennsylvania Standard Something Something) since like, we got back from break. Every day at lunch our principal tells us we have to get smarter because there's X days until PSSA's. @ and a half months are literally WASTED on learning how to take a special fucking test that, despite being told is the most important test of the year, we are also told isn't on our actual grades to relax us. So WHAT THE FUCK? My LA class literally does nothing but PSSA practice packets all day. My Science and History classes don't do that stuff because there is none, but they might add Science and History PSSA's next year. My Algebra class (yes, I'm a 7th grader in 9th grade Algebra) is the only one where we actually get any work done, because my History and Science classes are filled with fucktards who don't understand they'll be living off my takes in the form of welfare when they grow up and can't hold a job. My school's website front page is literally stripped of all news and has an overly sized font countdown to PSSA's. Fuck that.

Posted: Feb 03 2009 12:52 am

UsaSatsui wrote:

Quote:

I don't know, private entities almost always run better than their government counterpart,

The only thing I've ever seen run worse than a public entity is a private entity mandated by government law. Which is what schools would be if privatized.

every private entity is mandated by government law in some way. here are a few examples of privitized companies that run better than their counterpart. UPS, Fed-Ex, Red Cross, any private school, ER, Rehabilatation centers or whatever. There were always be government laws keeping ethical oversight on private companies.

Which private entity were you referring to when you said they ran worse than their government counterpart?

Posted: Feb 03 2009 06:52 am

I think she means something like Amtrak. The government doesn't actually own Amtrak, but they keep pouring money into it and continues to be poorly run.

Joined: Dec 06 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 11244

All in all, I agree, the system isn't working.

Some thoughts:

#1 For science based teachers, I agree. I don't so much agree for language arts teachers.

#2. Tenure is important, but you are right, it shouldn't mean you are allowed to get rusty. Continuing education credits are already a state requirement where I live, but they should take it one step further and define types of credits. Specialized teachers should have to take specialized credits. For example, chemistry teachers should have to take chemistry credits. This way teachers who stay around for 25 years don't fall so far off the track that they are no longer relevant.

#3 Don't blame the teachers for getting a bad class... that would suck. Unless past performance were the benchmark. For example, if you finish Freshman Year and get a 90% on an exit test... Perhaps the benchmark is to maintain or beat that percentage Sophomore year.

Posted: Feb 03 2009 09:36 am

Syd Lexia wrote:

In MA, we have one thing MCAS which is both a school evaluation and a graduation requirement. I got out before it was a grad requirement; we were the first test class.

Before that, we had Iowa tests. They didn't effect the school at all, they were just an aptitude test. Dunno if they still do that. I liked those.

I also like the SATs.

But MCAS = Hitler.

The MCAS are a good idea, and the entire country needs something like it. The only thing is they need to make the test a LOT harder.

Since most people aren't from MA, here's how it works:
Sophomore year of HS you're administered the MCAS test. You need to pass this test to graduate, but if you fail you can try again your junior year and again your senior year. I think it's great that students are actually being held to some sort of standard instead of being able to float through the system without even learning how to read, but the test is WAY to easy. If I can pass the test my sophomore year, what the fuck am I doing in high school for 2 more years?
The local newspapers are a huge problem as well, as they basically demonized the test. They would show example questions saying how hard the test was, and how like only 10% of adults were able to answer the questions, but it would be fucking Algebra I stuff that even if you haven't taken math classes in a long time should be no problem because algebra is a part of our daily lives.

Joined: Dec 06 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 11244

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

Syd Lexia wrote:

In MA, we have one thing MCAS which is both a school evaluation and a graduation requirement. I got out before it was a grad requirement; we were the first test class.

Before that, we had Iowa tests. They didn't effect the school at all, they were just an aptitude test. Dunno if they still do that. I liked those.

I also like the SATs.

But MCAS = Hitler.

The MCAS are a good idea, and the entire country needs something like it. The only thing is they need to make the test a LOT harder.

Since most people aren't from MA, here's how it works:
Sophomore year of HS you're administered the MCAS test. You need to pass this test to graduate, but if you fail you can try again your junior year and again your senior year. I think it's great that students are actually being held to some sort of standard instead of being able to float through the system without even learning how to read, but the test is WAY to easy. If I can pass the test my sophomore year, what the fuck am I doing in high school for 2 more years?
The local newspapers are a huge problem as well, as they basically demonized the test. They would show example questions saying how hard the test was, and how like only 10% of adults were able to answer the questions, but it would be fucking Algebra I stuff that even if you haven't taken math classes in a long time should be no problem because algebra is a part of our daily lives.

I never passed the full version of the CT one of these. Yet here I am... I am a capable member of society, I graduated High School with an A- average.

Fuck standardized testing as a graduating requirement. People aren't standard, therefore a standard test won't work.

You should have to pass 4 years of English and Math in HS to get a diploma, the rest is great, but fluff in comparison.

By the way, the portion of the test I didn't pass required you to take a side in an argument and debate your side of it. It was 100% subjective and I still maintain that though the readers may not have liked my points, they were clearly defined and well made. Fuck them.

Posted: Feb 03 2009 10:55 am

GPFontaine wrote:

You should have to pass 4 years of English and Math in HS to get a diploma, the rest is great, but fluff in comparison.

Except that without a standardized test, there's no way to tell if you actually deserved to pass those 4 years of English and Math. Kids get shuffled through the system without learning shit, and they don't deserve diplomas.

Posted: Feb 03 2009 12:43 pm

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

[
The MCAS are a good idea, and the entire country needs something like it. The only thing is they need to make the test a LOT harder.

Since most people aren't from MA, here's how it works:
Sophomore year of HS you're administered the MCAS test. You need to pass this test to graduate, but if you fail you can try again your junior year and again your senior year. I think it's great that students are actually being held to some sort of standard instead of being able to float through the system without even learning how to read, but the test is WAY to easy. If I can pass the test my sophomore year, what the fuck am I doing in high school for 2 more years?

The local newspapers are a huge problem as well, as they basically demonized the test. They would show example questions saying how hard the test was, and how like only 10% of adults were able to answer the questions, but it would be fucking Algebra I stuff that even if you haven't taken math classes in a long time should be no problem because algebra is a part of our daily lives.

The only reason adults can't do them is because they've forgotten how. There's no reason a reasonably intelligent student taking the class shouldn't be able to. I mean honestly, I am the biggest math idiot you will ever meet (literally LD when it comes to math), but even I can do a simple 'solve for X' equation.

I totally agree its good that kids are being held to a standard. For a low as the bar is on those tests, you *shouldn't* be able to graduate without passing. I also agree, in theory, on making them more difficult (the standards really are ridiculously low), but in practice it just won't work. Why? Because people will start failing, in droves. In that case, one of two things will happen: the test will be thrown out as 'unfair' because no high school wants a 25-30% + non-graduation rate, or they'll start making "exceptions" to the no graduation rule (with "exception" defined as 'letting a kid graduate so they and their parents will stfu and stop making our lives a living hell"), and render the whole "required for graduation" aspect of the test meaningless.

Its a bitch of a problem. This (along with ELL and Special Needs populations) is probably the single biggest issue facing Education today.

Posted: Feb 03 2009 03:46 pm

Or we could become like Japan and if you fail the test its your own fucking fault and you have to go to cram school to prepare for the test the next year.

If the graduation rate doesn't significantly decline then the test isn't doing its job.

Posted: Feb 03 2009 04:46 pm

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

Or we could become like Japan and if you fail the test its your own fucking fault and you have to go to cram school to prepare for the test the next year.

If the graduation rate doesn't significantly decline then the test isn't doing its job.

Yes.

Joined: Dec 06 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 11244

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

GPFontaine wrote:

You should have to pass 4 years of English and Math in HS to get a diploma, the rest is great, but fluff in comparison.

Except that without a standardized test, there's no way to tell if you actually deserved to pass those 4 years of English and Math. Kids get shuffled through the system without learning shit, and they don't deserve diplomas.

What percentage of kids do you really think leaves high school without being able to read/write or do algebra?

Personally I think that it is damn close to 1/1000. Perhaps this differs in each section of the country. But if kids are leaving school without these skills... Well that is a huge failure, but it shouldn't require a standardized test to be able to catch it.

Now, are all diplomas equal? No. Are all GPA's equal? No. A standardized test would show how they compare... but it would also fuck anyone who happened to be bad at that "style" of test.

Posted: Feb 03 2009 05:37 pm

Only 1/1000 kids graduating without being able to read is probably accurate, but is our only criteria for graduation that you can kinda read and can do basic algebra? It should be much harder than that. I'd honestly be happy if graduation rates from public high schools dropped 25-30%.