The article assumes the reader is up to date on current events.
I have no idea where the hostility is coming from.
Don't take this as a defense for Stein, but I feel like two guys were just beating the shit out of each other and I walked in half way through the fight. I just don't have my bearings.
Kubo
Joined: Aug 24 2005
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Posts: 1062
Posted:
Dec 04 2008 11:44 pm
Not meant to be flamebait, but a serious question as someone who isn't really an expert on religion or evolution...
Is evolution empirically testable?
If it's not, then why is it considered to be a *better* theory than creation? One of the central tenets of a *good* theory is that it is empirically testable. If it IS empirically testable, then doesn't it just discount stories in the Bible, and not God per se?
Just askin.
Personally, I believe in both and don't think that the two are mutually exclusive.
Thou, because I am wroth, be not dismayed, for I shall win the strife, whoever circle round within for the defence. This their insolence is not new, for of old they used it at a less secret gate, which still is found without a bolt. Above it thou didst see the dead inscription; and already on this side of it
descends the steep, passing without escort through the circles,
One such that by him the city shall be opened to us.
kenthegod
Title: Midnight Scientist
Joined: Dec 07 2006
Posts: 518
Posted:
Dec 05 2008 12:09 am
Did You know gorillas have tiny dicks? They mostly range from 1-3 inches, but are very thick .
I just don't like to talk religion, sorry.
let's have a toast to the douchebags
Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
Posted:
Dec 05 2008 12:20 am
Ben Stein's "new" movie? That came out almost a year ago.
I don't get the debate myself. God could have created every living thing and they've evolved from there.
Shake it, Quake it, Space Kaboom.
Ba'al
Title: Zerg Zergling
Joined: Mar 02 2008
Location: Uranus
Posts: 2286
Posted:
Dec 05 2008 12:23 am
kenthegod wrote:
Did You know gorillas have tiny dicks? They mostly range from 1-3 inches, but are very thick .
I just don't like to talk religion, sorry.
Did you know barnacles and a species of duck have the largest peckers in proportion to their bodies?
Tyop
Title: Grammar Nazi
Joined: May 04 2008
Location: Sauerkrautland
Posts: 1414
Posted:
Dec 05 2008 05:59 am
Kubo wrote:
Is evolution empirically testable?
Yes. Just as with any scientific theory, the theory of evolution generates predictions which are empirically testable. Should just one of these predictions turn out to be incorrect, the theory would be falsified and scientist would either have to abandon it or modify it.
I could give you examples of how empirically testable predictions of the theory of evolution have turned out to be correct, but instead let me just give you this short video with one such example. It's from a talk by Ken Miller, a believing Catholic and one of the most well respected biologists in the field; he can explain it a lot better than an interested layman like myself ever could:
Kubo wrote:
If it IS empirically testable, then doesn't it just discount stories in the Bible, and not God per se?
Correct. No scientific theory or empirical data can ever prove or disprove the existence of God. God's existence, unlike evolution, is not falsifiable and therefore completely out of reach of empirical science.
Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
Posted:
Dec 05 2008 10:55 am
Spanky, are you trying to incite a flame war?
I can tell you as a Chicagoan, that Ebert has become an arrogant, elitist prick in his old age.
As for Evolution, it's a great theory, but its study has rarely if ever found fossils demonstrating the all important "transitional states" for animals as they test possible improvements and discard those that don't work. Moreover, it doesn't explain the Cambrian explosion, where the ancestors of all of today's animals suddenly appeared on the earth with no antecedents.
As a 21st century man, I believe in evolution, but also as a 21st century Catholic, I also believe in creationism. There's nothing wrong with that, as the two beliefs don't necessarily contradict each other.
In fact, as science advances, they notice all the coincidences that make life possible, and it leads more and more to the idea of a "central planner" or "architect." See this recent article by Dinesh D'Souza:
Almost all of his criticisms of Expelled can be applied to any Michael Moore movie. Was he as quick to attack Moore's intellectually dishonest portrayal of Charlton Heston as he was to attack Ben Stein's encounter with Richard Dawkins?
The article assumes the reader is up to date on current events.
I have no idea where the hostility is coming from.
Don't take this as a defense for Stein, but I feel like two guys were just beating the shit out of each other and I walked in half way through the fight. I just don't have my bearings.
The hostility is coming from the evolution wars, a peculiar American problem where two sides, evolutionists who are aligned liberal(for ease of use, I'm gonna call em brights), and IDers and creationists who are aligned conservative(who will be known as supers), battle each other. They do so because brights consider war on reason, where any politically correct can be pushed into the classroom despite as scientific hypothesis goes, this one is utterly lacking in substance. The supers consider it a maneuver by the scientific establishment to remove troubling ideas that disagree with with scientific dogma and liberal agenda, and some consider nothing less than a base attack on the idea of God himself.
The war is as bitter and political as all of the other arguments in this country.
Put quite simply, if the omnipotent omniscient superbeing of the abrahamic religions existed, he's gone into hiding for some reason and would be impossible to find. A scientific hypothesis(and I put emphasis here, because a hypothesis and a theory are distinct) that is unfalsifiable is worthless scientifically. So ID should be taught in Sunday school, not a science lab.
This is all irrelevant though. Whatever your alignment on that issue, Ben Stein's movie is worthless propaganda. So Syd, I'm going to assume that your criticism of Roger Ebert is not a full defense of Expelled, but rather an issue with the fact that Ebert has turned into a jackass, and take you up on the implication that you would dislike this movie as much as any of Moore's stupid liberal hogwash to which you had drawn a parallel.
Tyop
Title: Grammar Nazi
Joined: May 04 2008
Location: Sauerkrautland
Posts: 1414
Posted:
Dec 05 2008 01:57 pm
Cattivo wrote:
As for Evolution, it's a great theory, but its study has rarely if ever found fossils demonstrating the all important "transitional states" for animals as they test possible improvements and discard those that don't work.
There are countless transitional fossils. I suggest you visit a museum of natural history near you. They are bound to have at least a few transitional fossils laying around and the guides are usually happy to answer any questions you have. They will tell you that the discovery of transitional fossils is in no way a "rare" event, but happens pretty frequently. Usually, after scientists have determined where and when the transition happened, they can go there, dig for the fossils and often find at least one if not more. In fact just last week a transitional turtle was found in China, named Odontochelys, that shed new light on the question of how the turtle's shell evolved. If you follow current scientific discoveries, either through blogs, newsletters or science magazines, you see stuff like this all the time.
But don't take my word for it. Here's Ken Miller again, this time on the matter of transitional fossils:
Cattivo wrote:
Moreover, it doesn't explain the Cambrian explosion, where the ancestors of all of today's animals suddenly appeared on the earth with no antecedents.
There are several possible explanations as to why the fossil records suddenly exploded. For example an increase of atmospheric oxygen could have allowed life to thrive. The end of the pre-Cambrian ice age could likewise have led to a more favorable environment. The best explanation however is probably that pre-Cambrian life forms hadn't evolved the hard parts necessary for efficient fossilization yet, which explains a) why there are so many fossils all of a sudden and b) why there are no morphological antecedents for these fossils (there is evidence for multi-cellular life before the Cambrian explosion, there are just no morphological antecedents for later forms among them - yet.)
There are still many unanswered questions about the Cambrian Explosion and we can all look forward to many more discoveries. But to say that the Cambrian Explosion cannot be explained is certainly premature at this point and in the end probably not true.
Cattivo wrote:
In fact, as science advances, they notice all the coincidences that make life possible, and it leads more and more to the idea of a "central planner" or "architect."
Not only life, but life, the universe and everything is made possible by these coincidences. For example if there hadn't been just a little more matter than anti-matter after the Big Bang, the universe as it is today wouldn't exist. And we have absolutely no idea what the cause for the matter/anti-matter asymmetry in the early universe was. But that certainly doesn't mean that science suggests or even proves that God exists. The concept of God is completely uninteresting to science (but not necessarily to scientists), precisely because science cannot make any verifiable or falsifiable statements about God. Unless you can present me with an empirical test for God, the claim that science gives so much as even a hint about the existence or in-existence of God is completely unfounded. You are welcome to attribute the beauty and the countless marvels of the universe to an outside creator, but don't suggest that science supports or hinders you in any of this. It doesn't.
Finally if I was a religious person I would be extremely cautious about basing or even just peripherally justifying my beliefs with current scientific knowledge. People have made the mistake of making their religious beliefs too dependent on empirical facts in the past. And science has a habit of changing. What may look like good evidence for God today may not be there tomorrow.
Probable Muppet
Joined: Aug 05 2008
Location: CA
Posts: 867
Posted:
Dec 05 2008 02:18 pm
At a work Christmas party right now, fighting the "war" on Christmas with my atheism, so sort of busy, but the biology of whales is worth a look-see.
Almost all of his criticisms of Expelled can be applied to any Michael Moore movie. Was he as quick to attack Moore's intellectually dishonest portrayal of Charlton Heston as he was to attack Ben Stein's encounter with Richard Dawkins?
Wait, you mean people only care about pushing their own agenda rather than being fair and honest?
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus
Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
Posted:
Dec 05 2008 02:54 pm
I'll try to take a look at that video over the weekend. I'm at work right now, so it's blocked. As that's contrary to what I've studied (unless I'm just forgetting most of my biology classes in school) I'd like to see if I'm wrong so that I can correct it.
Tyop wrote:
But to say that the Cambrian Explosion cannot be explained is certainly premature at this point and in the end probably not true.
I never said that. Perhaps you're reacting to the beliefs of pure creationists, and not me?
Tyop wrote:
Unless you can present me with an empirical test for God, the claim that science gives so much as even a hint about the existence or in-existence of God is completely unfounded. You are welcome to attribute the beauty and the countless marvels of the universe to an outside creator, but don't suggest that science supports or hinders you in any of this. It doesn't.
I certainly don't believe it's incontrovertible proof, I'm only suggesting it's something interesting to think about. Please read the entire article. The mere chance of all the suitable conditions we have could be as astronomically small as one in a billion. When we are lucky enough to hit that jackpot, the thought of a "central planner" naturally comes to mind. It may be more "philosophical" than "scientific", but not all thoughts can fit the scientific method.
Tyop wrote:
Finally if I was a religious person I would be extremely cautious about basing or even just peripherally justifying my beliefs with current scientific knowledge. People have made the mistake of making their religious beliefs too dependent on empirical facts in the past. And science has a habit of changing. What may look like good evidence for God today may not be there tomorrow.
I'm quite aware of how scientific paradigms are constantly changing - often from generation to generation. (Which is why I didn't say above that science proves the existence of God, that would be ridiculous and foolhardy).
In fact, this is part of the reason I don't think of evolution as the be all and end all of the explanation of life. It's not a rule, but a theory, and could be disproven in a few hundred or a few dozen years. People used to think that everything was made up of earth, wind, fire, and water, then we realized they were molecules of atoms, then we thought nothing was smaller than an atom, then we discovered protons, neutrons, and electrons, and thought there was nothing smaller, then we discovered quarks and then thought they couldn't be split, but I think we recently have (I haven't paid attention since my first year of college when I was majoring in chemistry. I ended up finding the liberal arts way more interesting). A new and better theory of understanding the world can come up at any time, during any generation. Science is never constant, but at least it understands God's creation more and more as times passes.
Tyop
Title: Grammar Nazi
Joined: May 04 2008
Location: Sauerkrautland
Posts: 1414
Posted:
Dec 05 2008 04:56 pm
Cattivo wrote:
I certainly don't believe it's incontrovertible proof, I'm only suggesting it's something interesting to think about. Please read the entire article. The mere chance of all the suitable conditions we have could be as astronomically small as one in a billion. When we are lucky enough to hit that jackpot, the thought of a "central planner" naturally comes to mind. It may be more "philosophical" than "scientific", but not all thoughts can fit the scientific method.
As long as we're clear that we're entirely in the realm of philosophy when discussing this, I don't have a fundamental problem with the argument even though I disagree. The fundamental problem I have is when the argument is used to somehow suggest that there is a scientific basis for metaphysical beliefs of any kind. And make no mistake about it, that's the reason this argument has become so en vogue in the last ten years or so. Both Atheists and religious people like to pretend that their beliefs are supported by science, because that would make their respective claims seemingly irrefutable. But if you look closely at what the article says, it is nothing but the centuries old teleological argument for the existence of God - a philosophical argument in scientific drag. Thus the same philosophical objections that have been brought forward against the teleological argument also apply for this incarnation. Those objections have been rejected, modified, rejected again, modified again etc. Decide for yourself in that matter. The point I'm getting at is that this has nothing to do with evolution or science.
Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
Posted:
Dec 05 2008 05:52 pm
Interesting.
S. McCracken
Moderator
Title: Enforcer
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2171
Posted:
Dec 06 2008 05:14 am
I was never trying to start a flame war. I just despise people who can't admit that both principles could be happening at the same time, as Stein seems to have trouble doing. Ebert even says as much, that Stein "excludes the middle", i.e. the vast majority of people who believe that both ideas coexist.
Optimist With Doubts
Title: Titlating
Joined: Dec 17 2007
Posts: 5042
Posted:
Dec 06 2008 05:52 am
A friend of mine was telling me about this movie and somehow it ended up on abortion debates. Pretty incredible that we ended up on some of the two biggest hot button issues possible. And in both circumstances I was basically told I was wrong and stupid for not thinking the same as her. That is why I hate discussing anything political people (at least where i live) always get heated and much LOUDER when you disagree with them as if somehow being called a moron will change your mind. That doesnt really happen here as much I am just sharing. And also the one important thing I took from that artice: Squaaawk!!! seriously it's in there
Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
Posted:
Dec 06 2008 11:47 am
S. McCracken wrote:
I just despise people who can't admit that both principles could be happening at the same time, as Stein seems to have trouble doing. Ebert even says as much, that Stein "excludes the middle", i.e. the vast majority of people who believe that both ideas coexist.
Yeah, I really don't understand why it's so hard for some creationists to admit that evolutionary creationism could be an option, wherein a sentient God sparked the Big Bang and perhaps stirred the pot at the times, but evolution was the primary mechanism through which His Earth finally came to be.
Is evolution a flawless theory? No. Is it a reasonable theory? Absolutely. And when a creationist mocks an evolutionist for supporting a concept that requires some small degree of unquestioning belief, and when that creatonist to concede a middle ground with his own theory, which requires a slightly larger degree of unquestioning belief, well I hope the irony is not lost of them.
Ebert is all old and shit sitting at his computer eating popcorn with a thumb up his ass trying to make some stink because that is what he is known for.
Blackout
Title: Captain Oblivious
Joined: Sep 01 2007
Location: That Rainy State
Posts: 10376
Posted:
Dec 06 2008 07:15 pm
Syd Lexia wrote:
S. McCracken wrote:
I just despise people who can't admit that both principles could be happening at the same time, as Stein seems to have trouble doing. Ebert even says as much, that Stein "excludes the middle", i.e. the vast majority of people who believe that both ideas coexist.
Yeah, I really don't understand why it's so hard for some creationists to admit that evolutionary creationism could be an option, wherein a sentient God sparked the Big Bang and perhaps stirred the pot at the times, but evolution was the primary mechanism through which His Earth finally came to be.
Is evolution a flawless theory? No. Is it a reasonable theory? Absolutely. And when a creationist mocks an evolutionist for supporting a concept that requires some small degree of unquestioning belief, and when that creatonist to concede a middle ground with his own theory, which requires a slightly larger degree of unquestioning belief, well I hope the irony is not lost of them.
Ask em what the big bang is illustrated as, the swirling gas end explosion yadda yadda yadda, let them rant a bit about how they think it's BS. Then ask them what they'd think it would look like if they were standing over God's shoulder watching him create the universe. It' stumped every one of them I've tried it on.
username
Title: owner of a lonely heart
Joined: Jul 06 2007
Location: phoenix, az usa
Posts: 16136
Posted:
Dec 06 2008 08:22 pm
Optimist With Doubts wrote:
And in both circumstances I was basically told I was wrong and stupid for not thinking the same as her. That is why I hate discussing anything political people (at least where i live) always get heated and much LOUDER when you disagree with them as if somehow being called a moron will change your mind.
i think its mostly women in general who act like this
Klimbatize wrote:
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TheRoboSleuth
Title: Sleuth Mark IV
Joined: Aug 08 2006
Location: The Gritty Future
Posts: 2739
Posted:
Dec 07 2008 07:01 pm
username wrote:
Optimist With Doubts wrote:
And in both circumstances I was basically told I was wrong and stupid for not thinking the same as her. That is why I hate discussing anything political people (at least where i live) always get heated and much LOUDER when you disagree with them as if somehow being called a moron will change your mind.
i think its mostly women in general who act like this
I know some dudes who've done this, on both sides of the debate.
JoshWoodzy
Joined: May 22 2008
Location: Goshen, VA
Posts: 6544
Posted:
Dec 07 2008 09:36 pm
Yeah it is sort of sexist to assume it's only women who raise their voice in a debate.
I am friends with equal parts women and men and in my experience, men are more defensive and immature in a debate, resorting to name calling and loud mouth.