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Wizard Joined: Jun 12 2009 Posts: 4209

Ok, here we go again. I didn't see a thread for this yet. And I'm once more on the DSi, so I can't source this for any of you, but:

apparently, some black 17 year old named Trayvon assaulted a white/hispanic guy named Zimmerman, who in turn shot Trayvon to death. I hear entire communities in FL (where it happened) are calling for blood and there is a large debate over whether Zimmerman is guilty of murder or will get off on self defense.

On an aside, Trayvon's mother purportedly trademarked his name soon after it happened so she would gain money from any merchandise created in support of him.

I may have details wrong, but that's just what I've heard.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 01:05 am

Actually, Zimmerman saw the hoodie-clad Trayvon approaching the gated community where he worked as a security guard and assumed his life was in danger, when in truth, Trayvon was just there to see his father.

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Need to get some links in here, folks. Misinformation already.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 01:40 am

Zimmerman didn't like the way Trayvon looked. I guarantee it.

Joined: Aug 28 2011 Posts: 537

While this is all really fucked up, I'd be pretty pissed if people immortalized me by holding up a bag of skittles.

Adam Carolla had an intelligent conversation about this on his podcast the other day.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 04:27 am

It's funny how they have to keep throwing the label "white/hispanic" just for the sake of cranking up the controversy. I've never heard anyone referred to as "white/hispanic".

Title: The Self-Titler Joined: Aug 14 2010 Posts: 598

Zimmerman. Totally Hispanic. No, really, he is. Anyway, we really need to research. CNN told me that Zimmerman was neighborhood watch and called about Trayvon (17? looks 14), who was wearing a hoodie. When police arrived they found Trayvon dead of a gunshot wound. Without any witnesses, this will likely result in no consequences for Zimmerman. Dumbass law in the first place, but I guess it is safe to assume that there will be witnesses in most places. Stories about Zimmerman's numerous, seemingly paranoid 911 calls in the past surfaced later.

Edit: The entire issue stems from a law in Florida that allows you to use deadly force if you feel seriously threatened, instead of responsibility to retreat laws that most other places have. No witness, one man alive at the end of the incident. Zimmerman has not been arrested, charged, or even brought in at all, just interviewed at the scene, the last I heard.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 09:23 am

Well, I heard the 911 call where Zimmerman stated he saw a suspicious person in the neighborhood and told the operator he was following the person. The operator clearly told him not to follow the person and he did anyways. I would guess from that call that he was just looking for trouble. Neighborhood watch members should not carry guns anyways.

Also, I heard on the news this morning Zimmerman is now claiming Trayvon came out of nowhere and punched him in the face as he was walking towards his car and apparently witnesses support that claim. I don't like to do this but I am calling racism here because you have a predominantly white neighborhood and also the 911 call that was released contradicts what Zimmerman is saying is his official story.

If a 17 year old kid attacked me and I had a gun I would not use it on him, even if he was winning the fight. It is just completely unnecessary escalation, regardless of Florida's dumbass stand your ground law, which was controversial to begin with because there were questions as to what would happen in a case just like this.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 09:40 am

If I had a gun on me and a 17 year old was kicking my ass, I'd totally shoot him. Because what if while he was kicking my ass, the gun fell out or he found it? Then he'd have a gun, that's what.

But once punch in the face? Absolutely not. No gun. The kid would have to be sitting on my chest using my face as a punching bag.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 09:48 am

Syd Lexia wrote:

If I had a gun on me and a 17 year old was kicking my ass, I'd totally shoot him. Because what if while he was kicking my ass, the gun fell out or he found it? Then he'd have a gun, that's what.

But once punch in the face? Absolutely not. No gun. The kid would have to be sitting on my chest using my face as a punching bag.

Those are both good points and I would have to agree with them after thinking about it.

What Zimmerman should have done is told the kid, "I am neighborhood watch and I am armed" as he was pursuing him.

Title: Titlating Joined: Dec 17 2007 Posts: 5042

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/18/446768/what-everyone-should-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/

There is a collection of news stories about the case. It has a anti-zimmerman slant to be sure but it's just presenting the facts and links to prove them.

The only witness to come out publicly has come out on Zimmerman's side which is notable and really I don't doubt Trayvon fought Zimmerman once approached.

In and of itself being attacked would warrant shooting the attacker as self defense, but he followed the man after being told not to by authorities.

Now here is where we all need to calm down because there is not much of a conclusion to be made. There is going to be a grand jury case and hopefully the facts will present themselves.

Joined: Apr 14 2006 Location: Lake Michigan Posts: 3332

The media is stoking the nation's reaction to this, without all the facts & evidence available. It's a tragedy, but it's probably the result of two hotheads going at it.

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Mar 27 2012 10:33 am

Even with a "stand your ground" law in place, you're only allowed to defend yourself with enough force needed to repel the attack. You are not allowed to use deadly force unless your attacker is also using deadly force.

Also, the guy followed him, against the advice of the dispatcher, and complained about how people never get caught, when all the kid was doing was WWB.

Whether or not he committed murder is up to the courts, but it certainly looks like this guy was looking for trouble.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 10:39 am

Walking While Black?

Joined: Apr 14 2006 Location: Lake Michigan Posts: 3332

Zimmerman was definitely looking for it, but apparently, according to evidence recently revealed, Zimmerman was giving up the search and approaching his car when Trayvon jumped him, punched him to the ground in one hit, and started banging his head against the sidewalk. In the panic, if I had a conceal carry license (my state is the only one without that law unfortunately), I would probably pull my gun out and shoot him to get him off me (although I would probably try to aim for his thigh).

Add to that the recent news that Trayvon has been suspended multiple times for vandalism, bringing a screwdiver (burglary implement) along with possibly stolen jewelry to school, and marijuana residue possession, it appears Trayvon was no angel. Considering this townhome development he was in was where his dad's fiance lives, it's then possible that he was responsible for the recent spat of robberies there whenever he visited, considering what he's been suspended for in the past.

This is all conjecture, though. All the facts need to come out before anyone makes any final conclusions. All I'm saying is don't condemn Zimmerman solely for this. Trayvon might have reacted badly to Zimmerman's overzealous patroling, or could have actually been a burglar anyway.

The media should let the police handle the investigation, without suddenly implying this country is on the precipice of a race war. I just bought my first gun last month. If I was sure my community was threatened by a criminal and if I was in danger, I would not hesitate using my revolver. I would hope I would be more wise while going about it than Zimmerman, though.

Title: Titlating Joined: Dec 17 2007 Posts: 5042

I think you really nailed it Cattivo. In the end outside of race this was a confrontation between a dude who thought he was judge dread and possibly a dumb hot headed teenager. Alone those two alone are bad enough but put them together and it has sadly turned tragic.

Joined: May 22 2008 Location: Goshen, VA Posts: 6544

Cattivo wrote:

Add to that the recent news that Trayvon has been suspended multiple times for vandalism, bringing a screwdiver (burglary implement) along with possibly stolen jewelry to school, and marijuana residue possession, it appears Trayvon was no angel.

Shhh! The media doesn't want to hear that!

Posted: Mar 27 2012 11:28 am

I really can't tell what happened between Zimmerman and Trayvon that day but whatever the fuck it was, it doesn't justify that a teenager gets shot.

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Mar 27 2012 11:37 am

i'll_bite_your_ear wrote:

I really can't tell what happened between Zimmerman and Trayvon that day but whatever the fuck it was, it doesn't justify that a teenager gets shot.

If one teenager was about to kill the other, then, yes, it's justified.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 11:51 am

So basically it was a case of a guy who thinks neighborhood watch means cop and a kid who thought he was tough shit and would show this fat guy for hassling him gone too far.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 11:53 am

If Treyvon was a threat to his life., it would be understandable.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 11:55 am

Cattivo wrote:

All the facts need to come out before anyone makes any final conclusions. All I'm saying is don't condemn Zimmerman solely for this. Trayvon might have reacted badly to Zimmerman's overzealous patroling, or could have actually been a burglar anyway.

The media should let the police handle the investigation, without suddenly implying this country is on the precipice of a race war. I just bought my first gun last month. If I was sure my community was threatened by a criminal and if I was in danger, I would not hesitate using my revolver. I would hope I would be more wise while going about it than Zimmerman, though.

This, except I don't own a gun and would probably just beat the kid's ass.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 02:36 pm

Optimist With Doubts wrote:

I think you really nailed it Cattivo. In the end outside of race this was a confrontation between a dude who thought he was judge dread and possibly a dumb hot headed teenager. Alone those two alone are bad enough but put them together and it has sadly turned tragic.

This.

Black Zarak wrote:

So basically it was a case of a guy who thinks neighborhood watch means cop and a kid who thought he was tough shit and would show this fat guy for hassling him gone too far.

and this.

Posted: Mar 27 2012 02:50 pm

I keep seeing people on Facebook getting all up in arms over this and there isn't shit to go on to decide what actually happened. This is why I don't watch the news networks right here. The second this came out they started screaming, "HATE CRIME!" and all the people watching just believed them, even without any real evidence pointing to it yet. If they show me some actual evidence I'll believe them, but until then it isn't one in my mind.

Now concealed carry laws are going to come under fire thanks to this though, because one idiot overstepped his bounds.

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Funny how anyone who says "let's wait for the facts" is basically saying they immediately side for Zimmerman when all they have is a testimony that doesn't hold up with a recorded 911 call. As far as I'm concerned, this was initiated by Zimmerman, a guy with a worse history than some kid who got in trouble a few times (I accidentally took a utility knife home from shop one time, and got suspended for it. People are acting like this screwdriver was a concealed weapon, hypocrisy in itself. The rest of the kid's record is conjecture and maybes). He saw some kid, followed him, was told to stop, and used the deadly force he's always dreamed of.

As a gun owner, I acknowledge that it should be a right to keep a firearm in your home that reasonably falls under the desire to own one for sport, collection, or profession/necessity. I also believe that the right doesn't even come close to being as important as the responsibility, and people like Zimmerman are not up to the responsibility. Enabling them with carrying laws and free pass "defense" laws like Florida's is only asking for trouble from the irresponsible.

Beach Bum wrote:

Now concealed carry laws are going to come under fire thanks to this though, because one idiot overstepped his bounds.

Fucking good. There has been approximately no good coming from concealed handguns, assault weapons, or idiotic gun nuts with action fantasies looking for trouble. I own several firearms, including two bolt-actions, a legal AK (here in PA, at least), and a revolver. I take them to the range for fun, and that's it. They're never stored loaded, their ammunition is kept in a separate part of the house, and if I ever had a burglar in my place, I'd call the police instead of putting myself and others in danger. I don't believe I have the right or responsibility to decide who lives or dies except for myself.

Who wants to have a handgun concealed on them? A person looking for trouble, whether justified or not. This guy said he respected law enforcement, but what he respected was his own vision of law enforcement. He looked at a lone kid, followed him without confronting him about who he was or if he was visiting, and expects that his 10 hours of training gives him the right to be a self-appointed detective.