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Posted: Nov 28 2011 12:28 pm

Okay I've seen quite a lot of talk about emulators about the forums so I feel it's an appropriate time to create this thread.

Main I've seen talk of emulators and ROMs being legal, illegal or being legal or illegal depending on if this or that happens. Personally, I don't see why it matters. Emulators exist and they're fun to have and in my opinion that's all that's the only fuck that should be given...but that's not the moral of this thread. ON TO THE TOPIC NOW.

Things that wouldn't make emulators illegal:
Only thing I can really say about this is that the only thing an emulator is is a program that allows you to play console/handheld games on your computer. What fuck's wrong with that?

The illegal side: (holy sweet popping pig pussies) There is my funny quote of the day.
1. The games and systems are free and the companies that support them make less money (as if they don't already have enough).
Rolling Eyes

2. Some fuck nugget(s) could decide to be a royal prick and distribute and profit from illegal copies of the games and fuck it up for everyone. (thanks a lot asshole)

Making emulators and ROMs straight up illegal all together is pointless:
If emulator do become 100% illegal then the law against them would be pointless.
What will they do about those who have emulators? So even if emulators are made illegal, it won't stop the use of them so way place a law against them? Action should only be taken when emulators are misused for illegal purposes.

Well...there's my opinion on the subject.
Ok...Izaya out.

Joined: May 22 2008 Location: Goshen, VA Posts: 6544

Posted: Nov 28 2011 12:38 pm

.....I don't get it..................................

All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.

Joined: May 22 2008 Location: Goshen, VA Posts: 6544

Basically, I don't even know how to respond. Most of what you said is so poorly worded that I could only respond in the same way but my brain won't let me. I'll leave it to some other poor sap to actually respond to this nonsense.

Posted: Nov 28 2011 12:47 pm

So what? It's poorly worded, big damn deal. All this is is me giving my opinion. I'm not writing a story. If you don't know how to respond then don't reply, simple as that.

Title: Comic Author Joined: Dec 12 2008 Posts: 1179

Emulators are legal. ROMs are illegal. End of story, no further discussion needed. Any "opinions" that anyone holds about them matter about as much as a pile of cat barf. If you really want to know why it is the way it is, try actually doing research at reputable sources, there are plenty of them around.

Posted: Nov 28 2011 01:03 pm

(god damnit some of you people piss me off)

Joined: Dec 06 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 11244

Izaya,

I agree with Josh... I understand the topic, but have no fucking clue what the hell you are trying to communicate to us.

It seems like you are writing your personal thought process rather than a coherent statement. I pray that The Bunny doesn't read this. I fear that trying to figure out your text might give him a stroke before he can slap you silly with his "Its a gray area" speech.

Posted: Nov 28 2011 01:31 pm

Emulators are only legal so long as the system doesn't have a BIOS, as that is also a ROM.

2011 SNES Champ Joined: Dec 04 2006 Posts: 1929

Why give a shit? It's obvious it'll always be illegal, but it's not like you're likely to get caught if you don't make companies think you're worth to be sued (like making a torrent of a game before it comes out).

As I don't plan to show my laptop to a cop and say "Look at all these ROMs I have!" in the near future, it doesn't really matters Razz

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Nov 28 2011 04:24 pm

I think I need to clear a few things up about "legal" and "illegal", at least as far is things go in the United States. This mostly boils down to copyright issues, and specifically what is copyrighted is computer code. It is also not legal to create and distribute a device that is used exclusively for copyright infringement.

So, are emulators legal? Probably. It's legal on copyright grounds, at least, since it uses original code. You could argue that the only purpose of a program like VirtuaNES is to play pirated NES games. It hasn't been decided in court yet whether PC emulators that can play ROM images are legal, but other emulators that play off the original medium have been (that's the Sony vs Bleem case, as well as other older ones involving Atari clones). And of course emulators licensed by the original rights holder are legal, see the Sega Smash Pack (which is actually KGen) and the Virtual Console.

Are ROM images legal? Probably not. A ROM image is the copy of a code from a memory chip. Therefore, the code is copyrighted, and copying and distributing it is illegal. In addition, it is not legal to use a device to make copies of ROM images as "backups", court rulings have stated the backup law doesn't apply to the chips.

Now that's done. A few specific replies.

Quote:

Main I've seen talk of emulators and ROMs being legal, illegal or being legal or illegal depending on if this or that happens. Personally, I don't see why it matters. Emulators exist and they're fun to have and in my opinion that's all that's the only fuck that should be given.

It matters if you actually care about the law. I personally use them, frequently, but I don't try and justify it. I'm breaking the law, plain and simple, and if the MAN wants to come down on me, so be it.

Quote:

1. The games and systems are free and the companies that support them make less money (as if they don't already have enough).

The amount of money a company has, or can make, is not relevant. Copyrighted material is just like any other piece of property. If you put the effort into creating something, you should be able to make money on it if you like. You should also have the right to give it away, keep it for yourself, or whatever.

Quote:

Making emulators and ROMs straight up illegal all together is pointless:
If emulator do become 100% illegal then the law against them would be pointless.
What will they do about those who have emulators? So even if emulators are made illegal, it won't stop the use of them so way place a law against them? Action should only be taken when emulators are misused for illegal purposes.

I really have no idea what you're saying here, but taking a guess, I'll try this reply: "We want people to stop this, but making a law against it won't stop people from doing it, so we shouldn't make the law in the first place" is an absolutely stupid argument. No, making a law doesn't stop people from doing anything. Enforcing the law does.

Quote:

It seems like you are writing your personal thought process rather than a coherent statement. I pray that The Bunny doesn't read this. I fear that trying to figure out your text might give him a stroke before he can slap you silly with his "Its a gray area" speech.

You know, I forgot to mention that it was a gray area. I knew I forgot a cliche somewhere, thanks.

Quote:

Emulators are only legal so long as the system doesn't have a BIOS, as that is also a ROM.

Clarifying - the emulator is still legal in that case. The BIOS (which may or may not be a ROM image, I don't know, it's not relevant) is the operating instructions for the system, it is code that is copyrighted, and therefore is illegal to distribute.

Joined: Jun 08 2010 Location: Termina Field Posts: 1541

Fernin wrote:

Emulators are legal. ROMs are illegal. End of story, no further discussion needed.

Actually, only ROMs of commercial games are illegal, and possibly non-commercial games (that use completely original code, graphics, etc.) that were released to cartridge format (eg. NES Battle Kid). Anything that was released by whoever developed it in ROM image format is legal to have in ROM image form.

Everything in this post is all you need to know.

Posted: Nov 28 2011 04:58 pm

Wow, gamers. Such rebel outlaws! Put those gamers in jail! On the top bunk, with the guy doing 10 years for marijuana on the bottom bunk, and both of them watching OJ play golf on the black and white TV.

Joined: May 22 2008 Location: Goshen, VA Posts: 6544

Whenever I set the GPS voice to Bon Jovi it always just says "We're halfway there."

Joined: Aug 04 2009 Posts: 2515

I may have imagined this but....

Aren't ROMs legal were you actually own the game? I remember on sites years ago it would be like

"delete this ROM after x days if you don't own the game"

UsaSatsui wrote:

It is also not legal to create and distribute a device that is used exclusively for copyright infringement.

Actually.....(from the ESA - the people who block Mario roms)

Quote:

Isn't it legal to copy computer and video games as a backup as long as you own a legitimate copy?

U.S. Copyright laws permit making a "backup" copy of computer programs for archival purposes. However, the right to make backup copies of computer programs for archival purposes, as embodied in 17 U.S.C. Section 117(2), does not in any way authorize the owner of a copy of a video or computer game to post or download a copy of that game to or from the Internet or make such copy available to other people for their use. Section 117(2) only gives the owner of the copy a right to make an archival copy of the actual copy that he/she legally possesses, not to make a copy of the ROM that someone else legally possesses, nor to post an archival copy of his/her original copy for distribution. The law clearly does NOT provide any right to sell "backup" copies. In fact, Section 117 is quite explicit in stating that any archival copy prepared under Section 117(2) can only be transferred to another person if, and only if: A) The original copy is also transferred, and only with the authorization of the copyright owner, and B) The transfer is part of the sale of all rights in the program.

It seems that it's perfectly legal as long as YOU make the backup. Taking roms from the internet as backups are illegal. So i've answered my own question Smile

Joined: May 22 2008 Location: Goshen, VA Posts: 6544

Alowishus wrote:

I may have imagined this but....

Aren't ROMs legal were you actually own the game? I remember on sites years ago it would be like

"delete this ROM after x days if you don't own the game"

No.

Joined: Aug 04 2009 Posts: 2515

Quote:

Isn't it OK to copy games that are no longer distributed in the stores or commercially exploited?

No, the current availability of a game in stores is irrelevant to its copyright status. Copyrights do not enter the public domain just because the works or products they protect are no longer commercially exploited or widely available. Therefore, the copyrights of games are valid even if the games are not found on store shelves, and copying or distributing those games is a copyright infringement.

This annoys me. Although it's fair within the law, it's annoying to the consumer as it's a big fuck you if you want older games.

Also for the sake of completion and closure on this topic:

Quote:

Haven't the copyrights for old games (like Atari & Commodore) expired?

U.S. copyright laws state that copyrights owned by corporations are valid for 95 years from the date of first publication. Because video and computer games have been around a little more than three decades, the copyrights of all video and computer programs will not expire for many decades to come.

Quote:

Some people think that people making emulators and ROMs are helping publishers by making old games available that are no longer being sold by the copyright owner. They say that this does not hurt anyone and allows gamers to play old favorites. What's the problem?

The problem is that it's illegal to make or distribute software or hardware emulators or ROMs without the copyright or trademark owners' permission. Moreover, copyrights and trademarks of games are corporate assets that are sometimes sold from one company to another. If these titles are available far and wide, it undermines the value of this intellectual property and adversely affects the copyright owner.

In addition, the assumption that the only games involved are vintage or nostalgia games is incorrect. Many popularly available emulators emulate current game systems. In other words, in many cases, emulator/ROM piracy is affecting games that are still on the market.

Finally, in the current highly competitive market, a top quality game costs millions of dollars to develop, and sometimes double or triple its development costs to market. Software publishers must generate a meaningful return on their investments if they are to continue to meet the growing demand for technologically advanced products. The suggestion that some piracy is benign and not harmful undermines respect for the intellectual property rights on which software companies depend in investing millions of dollars in creating and publishing new games. Piracy of any kind on any scale erodes this foundation.

tl;dr it's the law.

Joined: Feb 16 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 329

Joined: Aug 04 2009 Posts: 2515

Thanks that's gonna be in my head now.
...YOU GOT A CLASS AAAAAAAAAAAA LICENSE.

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Nov 28 2011 07:11 pm

Mr. Satire wrote:

Fernin wrote:

Emulators are legal. ROMs are illegal. End of story, no further discussion needed.

Actually, only ROMs of commercial games are illegal, and possibly non-commercial games (that use completely original code, graphics, etc.) that were released to cartridge format (eg. NES Battle Kid). Anything that was released by whoever developed it in ROM image format is legal to have in ROM image form.

This is not true. Even if it's non-commerical, it's still copyrighted. The only time it is legal to distribute a ROM is with the permission of the copyright holder (by default the creator), or if it has been released into the public domain.

Since you live in another country, though, your local laws may vary.

Quote:

It seems that it's perfectly legal as long as YOU make the backup. Taking roms from the internet as backups are illegal. So i've answered my own question

The courts have ruled that the archival rights only apply to mediums that are subject to "destruction or damage by mechanical or electrical failure", such as disk or tape. ROM chips do not fall under this category. Look up "Atari vs JS&A" for details. So, no, you don't have the right to an archive copy of a video game cartridge, even if you make it yourself (this doesn't appear to apply to CD or DVD based formats...I believe this is one of the reasons Nintendo wanted to stick with cartridges on the N64).

As for the "It's an old game, it doesn't hurt the marketability since it's not costing them any money" argument, the Virtual Console kinda shoots that one down pretty good.

Joined: Aug 04 2009 Posts: 2515

UsaSatsui wrote:

Quote:

It seems that it's perfectly legal as long as YOU make the backup. Taking roms from the internet as backups are illegal. So i've answered my own question

The courts have ruled that the archival rights only apply to mediums that are subject to "destruction or damage by mechanical or electrical failure", such as disk or tape. ROM chips do not fall under this category. Look up "Atari vs JS&A" for details. So, no, you don't have the right to an archive copy of a video game cartridge, even if you make it yourself (this doesn't appear to apply to CD or DVD based formats...I believe this is one of the reasons Nintendo wanted to stick with cartridges on the N64).

As for the "It's an old game, it doesn't hurt the marketability since it's not costing them any money" argument, the Virtual Console kinda shoots that one down pretty good.

Lol they weren't my arguments they were quotes from the ESA and how they use the law to combat piracy. I based my information solely on what they said. I suppose the case law prob has more merit than the statutes.

See thus: http://www.theesa.com/policy/antipiracy_faq.asp

Posted: Nov 28 2011 08:58 pm

Well, I see we have a Grade A Shit Storm brewing in here.

Posted: Nov 28 2011 09:09 pm

Can I pirate old Tiger LCD games? Is anyone still trying to sell those commercially?

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Syd Lexia wrote:

Can I pirate old Tiger LCD games? Is anyone still trying to sell those commercially?

Would you want to piss off the kind of people that would?

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Nov 28 2011 10:31 pm

Syd Lexia wrote:

Can I pirate old Tiger LCD games? Is anyone still trying to sell those commercially?

I think it would depend a lot on how you went about it and how much of the code you used. If you, say, made a flash that was an exact copy of one, I don't think it would violate copyright, since you wrote the code yourself (you may have some other issues, like trademark, but probably not copyright).

Tiger's part of Hasbro now, though, so the question is, do you really wanna fuck with them?