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Supreme Court Weighing Free Speech


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Lady_Satine
Title: Head of Lexian R&D
Joined: Oct 15 2005
Location: Metro area, Georgia
PostPosted: Oct 06 2010 09:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

WASHINGTON – Supreme Court justices, in a rare public display of sympathy, strongly suggested Wednesday they would like to rule for a dead Marine's father against fundamentalist church members who picketed his son's funeral — but aren't sure they can.

Left unresolved after an hourlong argument that explored the limits of the First Amendment: Does the father's emotional pain trump the protesters' free speech rights?

The difficulty of the constitutional issue was palpable in the courtroom as the justices weighed the case of Albert Snyder. His son died in Iraq in 2006, and members of a family-dominated church in Topeka, Kan., protested at the funeral to express their view that U.S. deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq are God's punishment for American immorality and tolerance of homosexuality and abortion.

Margie Phelps, arguing the case for her family's Westboro Baptist Church, said the message of the protests at military funerals and elsewhere is, "Nation, hear this little church. If you want them to stop dying, stop sinning."

Phelps' argument did not endear her to the justices, who asked repeatedly whether Snyder had any recourse.

"This is a case about exploiting a private family's grief," said Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who questioned whether the First Amendment should protect the church members.

Could a wounded soldier sue someone who demonstrates "outside the person's home, the person's workplace, outside the person's church ... saying these kinds of things: `You are a war criminal,' whatever these signs say or worse?" Justice Elena Kagan asked.

Justice Samuel Alito wanted to know if the Constitution also would shield someone who delivers a mean-spirited account of a soldier's death to the serviceman's grandmother while she's leaving her grandson's grave. "She's waiting to take a bus back home," Alito imagined and someone approaches to talk about the roadside bomb that killed the soldier. "`Let me describe it for you, and I am so happy that this happened. I only wish I were there. I only wish that I could have taken pictures of it.' And on and on. Now, is that protected by the First Amendment?"

Snyder, of York, Pa., is asking the court to reinstate a $5 million verdict against the Westboro members who held signs outside the Westminster, Md., funeral of Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, including ones that read "Thank God for Dead Soldiers," "You're Going to Hell" and "God Hates the USA." The 20-year-old Marine was killed in a Humvee accident in 2006.

The church also posted a poem on its website that assailed Snyder and his ex-wife for the way they brought up Matthew.

Phelps said the court has never allowed a speaker to be held liable for remarks on a topic of public interest, in this case U.S. war deaths. She also suggested that the court would find it difficult to draw a line that would protect grieving families without imposing significant limits on unpopular speech.

Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito and Antonin Scalia appeared, to varying degrees, to be searching for a way to rule for Snyder.

Snyder won an $11 million verdict against the church for intentional infliction of emotional distress, among other claims. A judge reduced the award to $5 million, then the federal appeals court in Richmond, Va., threw out the verdict altogether as barred by the church's First Amendment rights.


"Life is a waste of time. Time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
 
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Douche McCallister
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Title: DOO-SHAY
Joined: Jan 26 2007
Location: Private Areas
PostPosted: Oct 06 2010 09:57 pm Reply with quote Back to top

How is what this church is doing any different then all the hoopla people are making about bullying.
Oh and I hope they die end of discussion.


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SNESGuy
Title: El Duderino
Joined: Jul 31 2010
Location: Da D.C
PostPosted: Oct 06 2010 10:42 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Douche McCallister wrote:
How is what this church is doing any different then all the hoopla people are making about bullying.
Oh and I hope they die end of discussion.

^this, Its fucking amazing how these people can live with themseleves, i hope they die and burn in hell because they dont have a reason to live
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TheRoboSleuth
Title: Sleuth Mark IV
Joined: Aug 08 2006
Location: The Gritty Future
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 04:02 am Reply with quote Back to top

In case your wondering no you cannot ban a demonstration just because its profoundly callous and a disgrace to good Americans.

You are allowed to use all of the social pressures and free speech rights available to your to make these people as miserable as possible.


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Lady_Satine
Title: Head of Lexian R&D
Joined: Oct 15 2005
Location: Metro area, Georgia
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 04:10 am Reply with quote Back to top

TheRoboSleuth wrote:
In case your wondering no you cannot ban a demonstration just because its profoundly callous and a disgrace to good Americans.

You are allowed to use all of the social pressures and free speech rights available to your to make these people as miserable as possible.

I thought inciting a riot was one of the two exclusions of that right.


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Pandajuice
Title: The Power of Grayskull
Joined: Oct 30 2008
Location: US and UK
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 05:58 am Reply with quote Back to top

Also, isn't slander one of the exceptions to free speech? If they kept their signs and website generalized, they'd be fine, but they wrote a poem about this particular dead soldier and publically slandered his family. Should they be protected from that?

Anyway, I'm getting sick of these fucking nutjobs and someone just needs to blow them up or something.
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 08:47 am Reply with quote Back to top

I don't know how feasible this is but i think i have heard this before...

Westboro Baptist Church seem to be against America so why should American law apply to them. They should get no free speech.

If i was King Dick of America i would either strip of them their rights by the ammendments or just deport them.

They could do absolutely nothing about it. What would they do... sue America?

I know it's highly unrealistic but i really do hate them.

They may be allowed their free speech but they do not function as decent human beings. They have no sympathy or feelings for others, all they do is hate. I don't even regard them as human beings anymore.
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Ice2SeeYou
Title: Sexual Tyrannosaurus
Joined: Sep 28 2008
Location: South of Heaven
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 09:18 am Reply with quote Back to top

Keep free speech.

Legalize ass kicking for those who deserve it.


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Nekkoru
Title: Polish Pickle Wench
Joined: Jan 25 2008
Location: Warsaw, Poland
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 09:39 am Reply with quote Back to top

Even better. Keep free speech and pay me to kick any ass you want. I want it to be considered public service.


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Atma
Title: Dragoon
Joined: Apr 29 2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 09:43 am Reply with quote Back to top

What if the graveyard charged people an extra dollar to "rent" the grave yard during the funeral? Wouldn't that make it a private function and they wouldn't be able to come roaming up in there to protest then?

I'm just spitballing here.
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 09:44 am Reply with quote Back to top

There are exceptions to free speech, yes, and defamation is one of them. Unfortunately this doesn't appear to be a defamation case.

The problem the Justices have here is they don't want to set a precedent, which I think is the greatest fear of anyone who sits on an appeals court. If they want, they can flat-out say "Your little church sucks, he gets the money", and there ain't shit anyone in this country can do about it. They're the Supreme Fucking Court, you know. The problem is, now, every judge in the country has to rule the same way when they make their rulings, and not every group of people is as offensive as the WBC. So any decision they do make has to be based upon law and limit the precedent. That's what they mean when they say they're "looking for a way" to rule in his favor.

I will say, though, that when you have the greatest and most powerful judicial minds in the country allied against you and -on the record- saying they're looking for a reason to rule against you...you know you really are not very popular. Usually the SCOTUS keeps everything they do under tight wraps.
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Joe_Killer
Title: Professional Amature
Joined: Oct 10 2006
Location: Camp Lejeune, NC
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 10:21 am Reply with quote Back to top

How can someone be so mentally FUCKED to ever think it's okay to go protest someones funeral? That is so wrong, on so many different levels. Those people oughta be punished. Anyone that heaps even more crap on top of a family that just lost there child is in serious need of an attitude adjust...by chainsaw.


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Ash Burton
Title: AshRaiser
Joined: Nov 10 2008
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 10:33 am Reply with quote Back to top

I'm glad this never happened at any of the funerals I was in charge of, I would have walked over and butt stroked the first person I saw holding a sign. That would have cut my career and pay scale short.


butt stroke

–noun
a blow struck with the butt of a rifle, as in close combat.


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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 10:37 am Reply with quote Back to top

There was no need to define that, Ash. We all know you'd really just rub their ass.
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Valdronius
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Title: SydLexia COO
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: The Great White North
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 11:22 am Reply with quote Back to top

What if a group of people followed them around and began to riot every time they protested?


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Dr. Jeebus
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Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 11:30 am Reply with quote Back to top

Pandajuice wrote:
Also, isn't slander one of the exceptions to free speech? If they kept their signs and website generalized, they'd be fine, but they wrote a poem about this particular dead soldier and publically slandered his family. Should they be protected from that?

Anyway, I'm getting sick of these fucking nutjobs and someone just needs to blow them up or something.

Yes, slander is an exception to free speech. However, it's not slander unless you can prove it false. Can you PROVE that God doesn't hate America or that the dead soldiers and their family aren't going to Hell? Until you can, which is never, that can't be considered slander.


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Pandajuice
Title: The Power of Grayskull
Joined: Oct 30 2008
Location: US and UK
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 02:06 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Ash Burton wrote:
I'm glad this never happened at any of the funerals I was in charge of, I would have walked over and butt stroked the first person I saw holding a sign. That would have cut my career and pay scale short.


Shhh! Don't ask don't tell hasn't been repealed yet!
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Thunderhorse
Title: This is DELICIOUS!
Joined: Dec 29 2009
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 06:11 pm Reply with quote Back to top

These are the fucks that protested Dio's funeral and several dead soldiers who fought for their country and their right to free speech. Fuck those guys. If I was ithe King of America, I'd hang those guys for being dicks and then protest their funeral.


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Douche McCallister
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Title: DOO-SHAY
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PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 06:46 pm Reply with quote Back to top

We have so many people running around saying "I know my rights!" Do you? What happened to government of the people by the people for the people? How about cases that go to the supreme court with our "Constitutional Rights" being used as defenses we institute a national poll. We the people would speak and people like those from WBC would be destroyed. Situation solved.


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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
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PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 07:27 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Dr. Jeebus wrote:
Yes, slander is an exception to free speech. However, it's not slander unless you can prove it false. Can you PROVE that God doesn't hate America or that the dead soldiers and their family aren't going to Hell? Until you can, which is never, that can't be considered slander.

Not quite. If a statement is defamatory, it's up to the defense to prove the statement is true as a defense.

Quote:
We have so many people running around saying "I know my rights!" Do you? What happened to government of the people by the people for the people? How about cases that go to the supreme court with our "Constitutional Rights" being used as defenses we institute a national poll. We the people would speak and people like those from WBC would be destroyed. Situation solved.

There's two parts to a representative government - go by the will of the majority is one, but protect the rights of the minority is the other. You can't just "majority rule" away the rights of others because you don't like them. Bad things happen when you do.
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Ice2SeeYou
Title: Sexual Tyrannosaurus
Joined: Sep 28 2008
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PostPosted: Oct 07 2010 10:00 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Thunderhorse wrote:
These are the fucks that protested Dio's funeral and several dead soldiers who fought for their country and their right to free speech. Fuck those guys. If I was ithe King of America, I'd hang those guys for being dicks and then protest their funeral.

If I didn't have my gun, the king of England could walk in here and start pushing you around. You want that? Do you?


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GPFontaine
Joined: Dec 06 2007
Location: Connecticut
PostPosted: Nov 15 2010 01:22 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Free speech means you can say anything, it doesn't mean you should say everything. A day might come when you need help. It sure would suck if everyone hated you at that time.

Quote:
Shortly after finishing their protest at the funeral of Army Sgt. Jason James McCluskey of McAlester, a half-dozen protesters from Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan., headed to their minivan, only to discover that its front and rear passenger-side tires had been slashed.

To make matters worse, as their minivan slowly hobbled away on two flat tires, with a McAlester police car following behind, the protesters were unable to find anyone in town who would repair their vehicle, according to police.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101114_11_A12_CUTLIN105145&allcom=1
http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2010/11/oklahoma-westboro-church-gets-tires.html



 
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The Opponent
Title: Forum Battle WINNER
Joined: Feb 24 2010
Location: The Danger Zone
PostPosted: Nov 15 2010 01:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I hear a lot of protest stories next to funerals these days. I personally think it would be more offensive if they held a huge parade in front of their funeral instead. They would hold a big party and celebrate the man's death, while ironically partying for the death of America because they're going to Heaven and you ain't.


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Undeath
Title: Facepuncher of Asses
Joined: Jan 15 2009
Location: Here
PostPosted: Nov 15 2010 03:33 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Isn't the burden of proof on the accuser? If Phelps' band of fucking imbeciles are saying that this particular soldier is part of a greater cause, shouldn't they have to prove it? And unless God himself makes a courtroom appearance, doesn't that eliminate proof?

Seriously, they can arrange protests for Scientology, which is much fucking bigger than the WBC and have IT reeling, they can't do the same to the WBC? I think if you had an organized effort against the WBC ala the Scientology protests, and kept it consistent and legal, you might be able to directly confront them with it.


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Atma
Title: Dragoon
Joined: Apr 29 2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
PostPosted: Nov 15 2010 03:39 pm Reply with quote Back to top

GPFontaine wrote:
Free speech means you can say anything, it doesn't mean you should say everything. A day might come when you need help. It sure would suck if everyone hated you at that time.

Quote:
Shortly after finishing their protest at the funeral of Army Sgt. Jason James McCluskey of McAlester, a half-dozen protesters from Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan., headed to their minivan, only to discover that its front and rear passenger-side tires had been slashed.

To make matters worse, as their minivan slowly hobbled away on two flat tires, with a McAlester police car following behind, the protesters were unable to find anyone in town who would repair their vehicle, according to police.

Hahahahahaha That makes me feel wonderful.
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