Doddsino wrote:

Global warming is a fraud. While we as humans are responsible for many things that happen to the environment, warming up the planet isn't one of them. The planet goes through cycles, the last of which took place for over a few hundred years and nicknamed the "Little Ice Age" which ended in the mid-19th century. Is there anything we can do about it? Well, fighting mother nature is pretty fucking difficult. Gore has put forth the idea that U.S. tax payers pay a "carbon tax" which basically keeps tabs on all energy we use. So let's say that global warming DID "exist", it would still be a fucking problem, since it's China who puts out thousands of times the amount of greenhouse gases. Gore is a fucking idiot. And I can't stand that Fox correspondant though, he's pretty fucking obnoxious.

Firstly let me say i find what your saying to be a total mockery of what i study. I don't mean this to be rude but most people who read about climate change don't have a wide enough understanding of ecology and climatology to make a firm opinion on this which i can take seriously, sorry i respect your effort but it's me talking to you about some topic that i know little about and you know alot like i dunno maybe you like soccer i never watch it and i think its crap, my opinion doesn't really count because i don't know enough about it so this is no way a personal attack. What you read in the papers, see on the news is political, it's not based on actual science which is why i can't really find much credibility in what your saying. I am still an undergrad and technically my opinion is not much better than yours but at least mine is grounded by theory.

What your saying is correct that the climate change on the earth is natural. It has occurred, is occuring now and will continue to occur till the end of time but to say that humans don't play a part in climate change now is stupid and ignorant. Sure climate change is effecting by sun spot cycles, continental drift etc. but it is also effected by humanity. Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere traps heat in the earth. Do humans create Carbon Dioxide be it by burning of fossil fuels or whatever? Yes they do. ERGO Humans have an effect. Now if we harp back to what we were saying originally climate change will occur naturally but human beings aren't exactly stopping it by dumping CO2 into the atmosphere are they. - The sentence i have just wrote is the exact reason why people try to do stuff about climate change.

Irrespective of it occuring naturally humans are still exacerbating the problem. So if we reduce CO2 emissions we are therefore reducing the effects it will have. It's pretty common sense to think that if we increase emissions and just do whatever we want the temperatures will increase as CO2 increases which means more effects while if we reduce emissions, CO2 decreases and temperatures will decrease. So the battle against climate change isn't what your saying fighting mother nature. It's trying to reduce the influence we are having an trying to prepare for the natural changes which will occur.

I also CANNOT emphasise enough that any small change in an ecosystem will totally fuck it up. Syd posted that we would be laughing in the future at our "idiocy" for a half degree change, you don't really understand.

Let me put it this way. This is not climate related but its a similar thing related to my point:

You know the way your not allowed to introduce foreign species to an unnatural habitat? Like that Simpsons episode with the frog or whatever. It's the exact same thing here. The historical example (i can't remember were it was i will dig it up if you are interested) is were in the 17/18th century travellers landed their ships on islands and the rats from the ships entered the population were they never existed and started killing all the flightless birds there meaning there's a sharp change in the ecosystem, meaning that say the birds decline, the rats increase, lets say the birds ate some i dunno weird grass. That grass would increase. Is there other things which eat this grass - then they increase. You see this is how one small thing can fuck everything up, this is the basis for extinction and why there is conservation - not necessarily a good thing but thats a different story for another time.

You can clearly see that a small change has an effect so like the rats a small change in temperature has an effect. An increase worldwide in temperature by a few degrees will melt ice, ice generally is fresh water meaning that there's an increase in fresh water in the oceans - salt water. This effects thermohaline movement of water and how much heat water can hold. This effects global weather. El Nino i am sure you all know about occurs between Australia and South America it effects the weather in Ireland. The largest soil erosion event in Europe by severe weather conditions is directly related to El Nino something which happens at the other side of the world. The world is a giant system just like that small ecosystem with the rats, it's like the butterfly effect you do one thing at one place and it effects another. To say that oh its China dumping all the carbon into the atmosphere is true that they do add alot into the atmosphere but that cannot be ignored as it effects all over here as well. Think of winds how they move around the world. How sand can be lifted in Africa and dumped from the sky in the UK. This is a serious issue which cannot be blown over.

I just read what lavalarva is saying, this is my point about understanding and what you read in the papers. Climate change isn't just "OH NOES THE ICE IS MELTING". Sure flooding is a problem but like i said above it's not so much the quantity of water but what's in the water which is the problem. So maths isn't much use here buddy. You all get wrapped up in ice melting and CO2 as being the problems here. Theres alot lot lot lot lot lot more to it than that. They just don't tell you about it on the 6 o clock news. So thinking that its all a load of shit because you've found a loop hole in the CO2, ice melting theory doesn't mean it's not true because I'm afraid theres alot you don't know and that we still don't know.

Looking back at your original statement it's a total contradiction of what you later say. You say global warming is a fraud yet you state that the earth warms naturally. That is still global warming.

I hope i have made it clear how serious this issue actually is. Climate is unpredictable. 58% of people in N.Ireland don't believe in climate change. The topic came up in my work today and the guy said he didn't believe it cause "there were hot summers in the 70s". There are many factors effecting it not just one single thing and they all operate at different times. So you can see that humans plus natural change = serious problems.

So like i said at the start I'm not being a dick here I'm just saying that the politics of the situation is not the way to think of this but the science of it and what you read in the papers is just scare tactics 99% of the time.

If you have any questions or abuse to give me just reply to me haha. Not my most coherent argument as I am wrecked. I look forward to responses tomorrow. Peace out.

Syd Lexia wrote:

Alowishus wrote: I also CANNOT emphasise enough that any small change in an ecosystem will totally fuck it up. Syd posted that we would be laughing in the future at our "idiocy" for a half degree change, you don't really understand. First, let me say that the guy I quoted is a legitimate. He is an accomplished climate scientist, to the point where he has a Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lindzen#Global_warming Secondly, you pulled a bait and switch. You started off saying that any small change in an ecosystem would fuck it up. However, you failed to ever provide a historic example of that. The examples you DID provide (the introduction of a new predator, or the introduction of a species with no natural predator in the ecosystem) are MAJOR changes. It's hard to compare global warming to that. Between 1900 and 2000, the global temperature average increased 1.33 degrees Farenheit (0.78 degrees Celsius). The change was neither a significant or a sudden one, and as a result, its effects on ecosystems are hard to gauge. But because it was a slow, steady increase, there was ample time for populations to acclimatize themselves to the changes. Also, the Simpsons frog scenario was a direct parody of a very real, very famous case of foreign animal introductions gone critically wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbits_in_australia

Okay that's one climate scientist out of millions that believe climate change is real. Good for him that he thinks that.

Prove to me that the addition of a new predator to an environment is a major change. My point still stands irrespective of how big the change is it's the same principle. Any change no matter how big will have an effect on an ecosystem. Just because like you said an effect is hard to gauge does not mean that there was no effect at all. What i am talking about is not really how species react to climate change I am talking about about how the environment is effected by climate change. What you have stated is that populations can acclimatize themselves. I am referring to the effects on ice here.

To Ross Rifle - I wrote that having been up for over 24 hours. I'm sorry if i misspelled a word.