Syd Lexia wrote:

Kubo wrote: Revenge. Hold on to that thought. Go to bed thinking it. Wake up chanting it. Because nothing less than revenge is called for today. It was not vengeance. Revenge is not a valid motive, it's an emotional response. No, not vengeance. PUNISHMENT.

This. So, SO this. If all you do is blindly seek vengeance, the cycle of violence will never, ever have even a prayer of stopping. And, as backwards as it sounds, isn't what every war we've ever been in, including the two we're in now, is ultimately for? Stopping the people who wish us harm, so that we don't have to do violence anymore? If its not, it should be. Now, getting off my high horse, that WAS written on September 12, 2001. I think there wasn't a person in America--I'd go so far as to say a person in the free World--who didn't feel that way. When even the French are singing The Star Spangled Banner, you know some serious shit went down. And I felt that way myself. Its understandable. But once the shock and first wave of emotion is over, its our duty to take a longer view. "You hit me so I hit you back" is not a va.lid war strategy.

All political stuff aside, though, this is a day of reflection and remembrance. So rest in peace to everyone who died that day, everyone who died trying to save them, and everyone who has died since trying to make sure something like this will never happen again.





It looks like just a simple tear,
Trickling down the Eagle's cheek,
But it was shed as Americans watched in awe,
So shocked they could hardly speak.

Inside the tear is sorrow,
For the horrible loss of life,
A father, mother, sister or brother,
Or even a husband and wife.

A tear filled with vivid memories,
Mixed with compassion and love,
It triggers an arousal of strength,
Sent from our Heavenly Father above.

With this tear we find comfort,
That America will prevail,
We won't let terrorism,
Make the U.S. a living hell.

It may take a month, six months,
Or even more than a year,
But United and led by the hands of God,
Americans will wipe away that tear!

Rydog, I have a feeling I know the presentation you mean, but feel free to shoot it my way. I'd like to confirm.

You know, I've been to New York City twice. Once was in 1998, when I was in 8th grade. It was the big class trip to the East Coast. We actually got to go to the top of the WTC and check out the observation deck and stuff. I took a picture of the NYC skyline from Liberty Island later that day, too--its my favorite picture I have from that trip. It looks almost like a postcard (except for the fact that it was taken with a shitty disposable camera, but yeah.)

Four years later I got to go back on a trip with my high school theatre class. Instead of going to the top of the towers, we went to see Ground Zero. And I took another picture of the skyline from Liberty Island, too--not intentionally trying to recreate my other one, but because LI is the best place to get a good view of the city. It almost exactly mirrors my photo from '98, except that the towers are missing. Looking at them side by side doesn't even make me sad, really--not in the way photos and videos of the actual even make me sad. Its just kind of...surreal. And leaves me feeling empty. I might scan those and throw them up here, if anyone has an interest in seeing them.

Anyway, I remember the actual day quite well too, at least the morning of it. I was 17, senior in high school. I was driving to school listening to the news like I always did, and one of the reporters said a plane had hit the WTC. At that point it was only like 7 in the morning PST, and the details were sketchy--they said it was a small, single engine plane, and my first thought was, "oh jeeze, what a terrible accident. I hope everyone's okay." Didn't give it much thought after that, except to call my mom at home to tell her to turn on the TV and see what she could find out about it (I'm a huge aviation enthusiast, so air disasters tend to get my attention.)

After I got to class--zero period weightlifting--our teacher stopped us from dressing out, lined us up in the gym, and basically said, "one tower's collapsed, the other one's been hit too, and the Pentagon's been hit." And it took about five minutes for all of that to register with us students. It was just such a monumental, unbelievable wtf moment. I mean the Pentagon? That's insane!

My next class was US Government, and of course all we did was watch news coverage. We were the only class in the area with cable TV, so a bunch of other classes crowded in with us to watch. And that's really the last memory I have of the day itself. I don't think they sent us home, but I'm sure every class I had that day (and probably every one you did too) was like that. I just don't really remember much about it other than a lot of fear and a lot of crying.

I was actually really lucky, because it so happened that my mom was (and is) a teacher in the high school I went to. I don't remember doing it, but I can't conceive of not going to her classroom to get a hug and try to figure things out. I'm sure that was a wonderful thing to be able to do.

Yeah. So anyway /rambling. Sorry. I dunno why I felt the need to write all that.

Ash Burton wrote:

9-11 was like a swift kick in the nuts in a dark, cloudy nightclub. America was like, who the fuck just kicked me in the nuts? Bam, fuck you Afghanistan! And, you! You over there Iraq, what the fuck are you looking at? Pop, down goes Iraq. Meanwhile, our good buddy Saudi is slowly creeping out the back door of said nightclub with a big grin on his face. I love how America got after 9/11, it was hilarious. All of a sudden when I came home from my tour over there (I was overseas when 9-11 hit, so lucky me I got to go!) everyone was screaming for vengeance like Rob Halford. The best part was, even with Toby dickface Keith clouding the radio airwaves recruiting numbers plummeted. So my new understanding was this, fuck with America and were gonna get real pissed and send someone else to kick your ass, probably the poor. I'm not bitching, I love being a Marine, but I do it for the people around me. I don't try and justify wars by wrapping American flags around them. 9-11 will always be a reminder to me how we squandered a chance to put a real hurting on terrorism by being misled by bureaucrats in Washington instead of Sergeants and Generals on the ground. You may have liked Bush, Rummy and Co. but they weren't your bosses they were mine. Working for that administration was like a bad episode of The Office. “It might be interesting to wonder why all the generals see it in the same way, and all those, who never fired a shot in anger and really held back to go to war, see it in a different way. That's usually the way it is in history.” -Marine Corps General Zinni

THAT is patriotism. I wasn't going to go there personally given the tone of the thread, but since you did, I'm more than willing to stand up and salute it. (So to speak.)

Really, though, can you blame people for calling for blood? At least at first? I don't think so. It also seems to me that Afghanistan was a logical step to take. Now, the Toby Keith crowd who closed their eyes and minds and allowed themselves to be deafend by the administration's "USA!" chant, and helped allow us to get our asses dragged into Iraq...that's another story entirely. (I have this theory that these same people are the ones showing up at town hall meetings now and ruining any chance of actual discourse, but I digress.)

I can't say with any amount of certainly that if we had focused on Afghanistan, we might have at least most of our troops home by now, but we'd have a damn better shot at it. And we wouldn't be entangled in a double war, either. Thoughts on that, Ash? (And I have to ask: where were you deployed before the shit hit the fan? Of all the servicepeople I know, you're the only one who was overseas when it happened.)

Tyop wrote:

Knyte wrote: To this day, I still can't help wonder how the terrorists lucked out by hijacking 3 out of 4 planes full of pussies? Seriously, boxcutters? Guess what Adnon, I got a leather jacket and a boot with your name on it. Oh, and the odds against you and your buddie are like a 100 to 2. Phone call recordings indicate that the passengers of the three flights that hit their targets thought the terrorists had bombs. That's most likely the reason why they didn't attack them.

That, and you have to remember what a different world it was before about 10am on 9/11/01. Until that day, very few if any Americans had conceived the possibility of a suicide attack like that, let alone one that used civilians. The passengers on those planes had no reason to imagine the scenario that actually took place. If I were them, I would have assumed we were going to land somewhere and possibly be held for ransom. Either way, the idea of attacking would have been the least logical.

Now, the folks on flight 93 had the advantage of KNOWING what had happened to the other three planes, because family members told them via cell phone. As soon as they put 2+2 together, they rose up and sacrificed their lives to protect the target the terrorists were aiming for. I'd bet my life that, had the passengers on the other planes had the benefit of that knowledge, they would have tried the same thing. Perhaps not successfully (no way of telling that), but they would have tried.