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Syd Lexia
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Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 01:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I'm writing an essay for the main page called Why I'm Quitting Magic. I may not actually quit, but these rules are all stupid. And the one rule they SHOULD have fixed they didn't.

They whine and whine about flavor and stuff not being intuitive, you know what they should fix? The distinction between cast and successfully cast. Either a spell is cast or it's not. If it's countered, secondary abilities like Cascade and Storm should NOT trigger.
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 01:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
They're changing the token ownership rule? Completely fucking gay. It's not a trick that's widely used, and if you're playing casual games with other friends who don't understand it, it's never going to come up.


Then who cares about the change? I see nothing wrong with changing things to the way most people assume they already are.

Quote:
I'm writing an essay for the main page called Why I'm Quitting Magic. I may not actually quit, but these rules are all stupid.


These rules changes are nothing. The only one that has any significant effect on play, at all, is the damage-on-the-stack one. I get the feeling you're opposing change simply because it's a change.

Seriously, the Grand Creature Type Update changed the game more than this (and you probably bitched about that too).

Quote:
Either a spell is cast or it's not. If it's countered, secondary abilities like Cascade and Storm should NOT trigger.


I cast 2 (or 10) spells at once. That's the flavor of the ability. Why should one counterspell get them all?

What really is needed is a reprint of Stifle.

BTW, I agree you should be able to divide damage up, but they wanted to not completely screw over damage prevention effects. I remember reading the whole reason they put combat damage on the stack in the first place was to give a window for these effects. Sucks if you prevent the next 3 to one creature and they just assign it all to another one.

If you wanna divvy up, use New Deathtouch. Apparently it comes with precise striking power. Wink
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Dr. Jeebus
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Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 02:28 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
They whine and whine about flavor and stuff not being intuitive, you know what they should fix? The distinction between cast and successfully cast. Either a spell is cast or it's not. If it's countered, secondary abilities like Cascade and Storm should NOT trigger.

They cleared up that distinction over a decade ago with the 6th edition rules changes. There is no such thing as successfully cast. Successfully cast meant that a spell survived the interrupt window which clearly no longer exists.

Abilities like cascade and storm SHOULD trigger if the spell is countered because that's the entire fucking point of the ability. If they wanted you to be able to stop all copies of a storm card with a single counterspell then they would have designed it as such.

And these rules changes can't all be stupid. You know why? Because we thought it was stupid in 6th edition when they changed it so damage goes on the stack and when they changed the word "cast" to "play"; now they're changing them back. Both changes can't be stupid.


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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 02:32 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The creature type update was great. It didn't make any cards worse, all it did was make stuff better. I would argue Lord should perhaps still a creature type, since a Goblin King shouldn't be able to rally another Goblin King, but whatever. Goblin King is a better card than it was and that's fine with me.

In response to your other stuff, all future elaboration will be saved for my news blog rant.
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Ghandi
Title: Alexz Aficionado
Joined: May 21 2008
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 02:51 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Most of the changes seem stupid to me, the rest, like "Battlefield" just seem pointless. There are some there I don't mind and make some sense.

Word interchanging is typically nothing to care or worry about, except when in affects so many cards like some of these do in Magic. The simpler and better thing is often to let the rules stand as is.

I think Storm and Cascade should be able to be countered by a single counterspell since their affects are directly attached to the spell being countered and part of it. You don't counter half a spell, you counter the whole thing. Since the spell logically won't be there after being countered any abilities is has should go away too.

Syd, make sure you mention their Library of Alexzandria style errata. They're probably filling book 55 right now just to adjust to their new changes.


RIP Hacker

Alexz Johnson

 
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Lady_Satine
Title: Head of Lexian R&D
Joined: Oct 15 2005
Location: Metro area, Georgia
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 03:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not happy with the token ownership rules change (my Brand deck dies with the change). Mana burn will still exist if I ever play casually. I'm fine with going back to "cast" instead of "play."


"Life is a waste of time. Time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
 
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Syd Lexia
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Title: Pop Culture Junkie
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Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 03:21 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, cast instead of play is the one thing they did I like.
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Dr. Jeebus
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Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
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Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 07:27 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I think Syd is only really angry cause he JUST built a Brand deck.

I love Brand.


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UsaSatsui wrote:
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus

 
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Syd Lexia
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Title: Pop Culture Junkie
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Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 07:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Seriously, when is a new player ever going to deal with token ownership?

It's not a commonly used trick, and it's not even possible to exploit in Standard. It's one of the subtle nuances that makes the game fun.
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 08:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Seriously, when is a new player ever going to deal with token ownership?

It's not a commonly used trick, and it's not even possible to exploit in Standard. It's one of the subtle nuances that makes the game fun.

You say "subtle nuance", I say "unintuitive and bizarre rule for experienced players to exploit that really makes no sense at all". In fact, that seems to be the whole point of these changes: getting rid of rules that fly in the face of the way the game should be logically played.

You yourself say it's a minor change that most players aren't ever going to notice...why not make it work the way people -think- it works?
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Knyte
2010 SLF Tag Champ*
Title: Curator Of The VGM
Joined: Nov 01 2006
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PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 08:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd and Jeebus are looking at the rule changes as the seasoned veterans they are. There are alot of things they know about game, that a 13 year old buying his 1st starter deck isn't going to have a clue about. Do they even put rule books into Starters....I'm sorry, I mean "Intro" decks anymore?

Wizards is trying to walk the fine line of keeping the verterans happy while, trying to make 15 years of rule add-ons and such accessable to first time players.

If you learned all the rules to baseball 10 years ago, you could play the game today and still know all the rules. If you learned all the rules to Magic 10 years ago, you would only know half of them today.
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Syd Lexia
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Title: Pop Culture Junkie
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PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 08:52 pm Reply with quote Back to top

UsaSatsui wrote:
You say "subtle nuance", I say "unintuitive and bizarre rule for experienced players to exploit that really makes no sense at all". In fact, that seems to be the whole point of these changes: getting rid of rules that fly in the face of the way the game should be logically played.

It is intracacies of the rules that make the game fun, especially draft and sealed. A large part of any draft or sealed tournament is pulling bomb rares. If you don't, you are at a severe disadvantage. But because the ruleshave complexities to them, pulling a bomb rare isn't always enough. I've been better people in draft who had better decks and better board positions by outsmarting and outplaying them. And that's what makes MTG fun, the mental aspect. Being in a bad situation and playing your way out of it.

And these rules changes strip away the cerebral aspect of MTG. They are basically dumbing things down and turning the game into Yu-Gi-Oh 2.0. R&D doesn't want you to be clever. They want to play either an aggro deck or some retarded combo deck that stalls for seven turns then takes a 15 minute eighth turn and wins on it. And they don't want you to have to design it yourself. They want the game to be so intuitive that you can copy someone else's $200 top 8 deck off the internet, build it, and be able to win with it out with only a mediocre grasp of the rules and without having read two pages of notes of how the deck works and when and what you should sideboard.

Well, fuck that. I've always considered Magic to be a CCG version of chess. Under the new changes, it's more like the card game War. Whoever topdecks the most wins.
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 08:59 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
And these rules changes strip away the cerebral aspect of MTG. They are basically dumbing things down and turning the game into Yu-Gi-Oh 2.0.


Would you like to back up that statement somehow, or should I just discount it as over the top hyperbole. I have no idea how mana burn or not getting 2 damage out of your Mogg Fanatic is less intelligent.

Strip away the cerebral aspect. Really. Because everyone who uses the "damage on the stack" trick is a damn genius.

Trust me, the game still requires plenty of strategic thought.

Quote:
I've always considered Magic to be a CCG version of chess.


"I capture queen's side bishop with my rook, but with capture on the stack, I castle"?
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Syd Lexia
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Title: Pop Culture Junkie
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Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 09:19 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Castling is completely unintuitive. So is en passant. We should just remove them from the rules to make the game easier to understand.
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
PostPosted: Jun 10 2009 09:25 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Castling is completely unintuitive. So is en passant. We should just remove them from the rules to make the game easier to understand.


Okay. But other than those small hitches, Chess is an extremely simple game. The rules can fit on a single page. You can teach them to someone within 20 minutes. And there are no chess rules you can exploit to gain an advantage over someone who isn't familiar with every aspect of them (like stack shenanigans, such as the O-Ring trick)

A good comparison would be to change the en passant rule with a rule that says you can't pass an enemy pawn on the 5th rank with a double-move. Does it change the game? Yes, but not in a significant way at all. It just makes it easier to understand
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Jun 11 2009 12:06 am Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Seriously, when is a new player ever going to deal with token ownership?

It's not a commonly used trick, and it's not even possible to exploit in Standard. It's one of the subtle nuances that makes the game fun.

It has been used in standard with Warp World and Hidden Troll, and Warp World is still legal (Along with like 1000 cards that make tokens) so it's still a relevant rule.


dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
UsaSatsui wrote:
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus

 
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Lady_Satine
Title: Head of Lexian R&D
Joined: Oct 15 2005
Location: Metro area, Georgia
PostPosted: Jun 11 2009 01:29 am Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Castling is completely unintuitive. So is en passant. We should just remove them from the rules to make the game easier to understand.

"I declare a null block."


"Life is a waste of time. Time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
 
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Dr. Jeebus
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Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
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PostPosted: Jun 18 2009 11:01 am Reply with quote Back to top

MOTHER FUCKING LIGHTNING BOLT IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!


dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
UsaSatsui wrote:
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus

 
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Lady_Satine
Title: Head of Lexian R&D
Joined: Oct 15 2005
Location: Metro area, Georgia
PostPosted: Jun 18 2009 03:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Dr. Jeebus wrote:
MOTHER FUCKING LIGHTNING BOLT IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!

You're shitting me! Let me guess, it's an mythic rare or whatever.


"Life is a waste of time. Time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
 
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Dr. Jeebus
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Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
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Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jun 18 2009 04:35 pm Reply with quote Back to top

It'll either be common or uncommon. My guess is uncommon.


dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
UsaSatsui wrote:
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus

 
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
PostPosted: Jun 18 2009 04:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

...this is highly doubtful. To say the least. It's a sharp U-Turn on their current design practices.

"Art on Russian website" is also hardly a confirmation.
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UsaSatsui
Title: The White Rabbit
Joined: May 25 2008
Location: Hiding
PostPosted: Jun 24 2009 12:29 am Reply with quote Back to top

...hoky shit.

Image

R&D, you got some splainin' to do...
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jun 24 2009 06:19 am Reply with quote Back to top

Oh, that flavor text is soooooooo clever. Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes
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Dr. Jeebus
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Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
PostPosted: Jun 24 2009 11:24 am Reply with quote Back to top

So Lightning Bolt is now fueled, not by red mana, but by teen angst? The art isn't bad (though I like the original better) though and at least it's back and common.


dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
UsaSatsui wrote:
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus

 
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Knyte
2010 SLF Tag Champ*
Title: Curator Of The VGM
Joined: Nov 01 2006
Location: Here I am.
PostPosted: Jun 24 2009 11:58 am Reply with quote Back to top

Shivan Dragon has also returned.

Here's the Intro Packs:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
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