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Bouya
Title: Delinquent
Joined: Aug 15 2007
Location: Suzuran
Posts: 1443
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| B.B.King wrote: |
| As a fucking artist, you should grow up and appreciate the fact that you've created something worth while. If you were EVER making this movie with the intent to make anything more then the budget back off of it, then FUCK YOU right back because you were in it for the wrong reasons in the first place. |
The " a true artist starves and lives in squalor because no true artist accepts monetary gain for his craft" shtick is a bunch of hippie bullshit, sir. There's a difference between "I painted this painting for me" and "I made this movie that I am selling." There's also a difference between "I bought this movie, let's watch it together" and "I bought this movie, let me distribute it to potentially thousands of people and cut into the guy's customer base." It makes a bigger impact on a guy with a limited budget than it does for Columbia Tristar or whoever.
But I'm sure you know all of this.
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B.B.King
Title: Total Fucking Loser
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: Truck stops and gay bars
Posts: 595
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| Douche McCallister wrote: |
I had relieved my hatred towards B.B.'s posts until I read these two. B.B. plain and simple...go to hell...just because your a self righteous artist and would never "want" to make money on your writings, paintings, and songs. Your so full of B.S. its brimming out of your ears. To tell Darkmaze "Fuck You" for maybe having his past two years make a little bit of money, go somewhere else with that shit. Darkmaze...yea it sucks that this is going on, its never going to stop either. If you need an actor I'll do it for free lodging during the shoot.  |
Yeah ok. i'm full of shit. I know i've spent over 3 grand on my music over the past 2 years. I sol d my cd for 2 dollars. I made 24.50$ off of selling my cds, and I gave the rest away, and willingly put it up on a number of indie and scene release torrent sites, inviting my friends family and everyone else to download it openly.
roughly 3000 - 24.50 = 2975 dollars and 5 cents in debt for all of my instruments bought in the past 2 years, and recording time and cd pressing and button making, plus paying my friend to take me to shows out of town and paying for all the gas.
Fuck I guess I know nothing about not making a lot of money off of my art. but It doesn't matter to me. I could have made 1 dollar or 100000 dollars and would have still cared only about wether people really liked it and understood it or not.
darkmaze,you do really good work. I KNOW it sucks to not make a lot of money back on something you put so much time into. I know. but instead just try to remember that you are doing something worthwhile and that people care enough to go well out of their way to watch press start, even if they don't have any money.
p.s fuck you big time douche. big time.
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S. McCracken
Moderator
Title: Enforcer
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2171
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I think the disconnect here is coming from not seeing the other person's point. What this boils down to is that you're all arguing the same side: no one should compromise their art for monetary gain. It's a good point, and it's the right point to make.
HOWEVER:
How is it a bad thing if someone hears or sees your art, which you did not compromise, and wants to pay you handsomely for it? And if multiple people see or hear it and want to buy it? Why shouldn't you sell that art? It doesn't devalue the work if it's still good. There's a difference between "selling out" and "selling your work".
And if you're the kind of person who makes great art and wants to sell it, what's the big deal? The market will either embrace your work and you'll be rewarded for your talent or people will hate it and you get to be an asshole about it and say things like "no one is smart enough to understand my work". As long as one stays true to the art, where's the issue?
Is Munch a better artist than Degas because he died penniless and without a family? No.
EDIT: DM's point about movie-making being a team effort said it better than anything I wrote in this space. I hadn't read his post yet. Good work.
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Bouya
Title: Delinquent
Joined: Aug 15 2007
Location: Suzuran
Posts: 1443
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| S. McCracken wrote: |
| How is it a bad thing if someone hears or sees your art, which you did not compromise, and wants to pay you handsomely for it? And if multiple people see or hear it and want to buy it? Why shouldn't you sell that art? It doesn't devalue the work if it's still good. There's a difference between "selling out" and "selling your work". |
It's like when people get on some band's ass for selling out because they dared sign to a major label or have a video, back when videos actually got playtime. Even if reaching a wider audience means "selling out" to some label, I'll glady take the financial freedom so I can pursue my craft full time instead of also working some job while I try and struggle to fund my side projects.
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Douche McCallister
Moderator
Title: DOO-SHAY
Joined: Jan 26 2007
Location: Private Areas
Posts: 5672
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| B.B.King wrote: |
I made 24.50$ off of selling my cds, and I gave the rest away, and willingly put it up on a number of indie and scene release torrent sites, inviting my friends family and everyone else to download it openly.
p.s fuck you big time douche. big time. |
FIRST - I just found it downright rude to say "Fuck You" to Darkmaze. Which everyone understands why he is mad, I just thought it was uncalled for.
Secondly - That's usually what Indie people do to get there name out there. It's common sense. Like the Indie stars that are catching big breaks on Myspace, or Youtube, you gotta put yourself out there for free to get recognized/fan base. Maybe it's different where you are.
p.s thank you big time B.B.. big time.
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Char Aznable
Title: Char Classic™
Joined: Jul 24 2006
Location: Robot Boombox HQ
Posts: 7542
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B.B, you're saying that if you were approached by a record label for a million dollar recording contract, you wouldn't take it? Because that's the only way your comment doesn't make you look like a giant tool (it still makes you look like a tool, though).
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B.B.King
Title: Total Fucking Loser
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: Truck stops and gay bars
Posts: 595
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I would never take a million dollar contract for someone else to own the rights to distibute and make money off of my songs. there is nothing a record company could do or say or pay me to make me want to give them my collective musics for them to do as they will. Even if they had only the best intentions for my music, I would just never be satisfied with any amount of money or possessions.
My art is worth a lot more to me then a million dollars. i'll eat kraft dinner for 60 years and die a cheese-bloated death so long as I know in my head that I never did anything to compromise my music. The most i've ever taken for a cd was exactly 2 dollars. I plan to keep it that way. If that makes me an idiot then oh well.. .
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I am a worthless piece of crap. |
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Char Aznable
Title: Char Classic™
Joined: Jul 24 2006
Location: Robot Boombox HQ
Posts: 7542
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OK, you're an idiot. Either that or I can be bought easier. Either way I still have money.
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Bouya
Title: Delinquent
Joined: Aug 15 2007
Location: Suzuran
Posts: 1443
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| B.B.King wrote: |
I would never take a million dollar contract for someone else to own the rights to distibute and make money off of my songs. there is nothing a record company could do or say or pay me to make me want to give them my collective musics for them to do as they will. Even if they had only the best intentions for my music, I would just never be satisfied with any amount of money or possessions.
My art is worth a lot more to me then a million dollars. i'll eat kraft dinner for 60 years and die a cheese-bloated death so long as I know in my head that I never did anything to compromise my music. The most i've ever taken for a cd was exactly 2 dollars. I plan to keep it that way. If that makes me an idiot then oh well.. . |
joke post imo
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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Okay BB, let's say you spend 6 months growing some really killer weed. Then, right when it's really choice, some random guy comes into your place and smokes all the buds when you're not home. Instead of being upset, you should be flattered that someone thinks highly enough of your work as a horticulturist to take all your marijuana.
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Douche McCallister
Moderator
Title: DOO-SHAY
Joined: Jan 26 2007
Location: Private Areas
Posts: 5672
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Ross Rifle
Title: Rock N Roll God
Joined: Oct 29 2006
Location: Chilliwack, BC
Posts: 4844
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Or...let's say you've been dating this total babe, a 10/10 for a few months. You're really proud that you scored such an awesome chick. You'll be flattered if you come home and find your neighbor banging her? I mean, you should be flattered that someone is so attracted to your girlfriend that he'd have sex with her without your permission, right?
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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| ross_rifle113 wrote: |
| I mean, you should be flattered that someone is so attracted to your girlfriend that he'd have sex with her without your permission, right? |
Except that women aren't property. Unless...
No, women aren't property.
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Captain_Pollution
Title: Hugh
Joined: Sep 23 2007
Posts: 1591
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Yeah man, that really does suck. Like, I need a TV to watch movies so I've never been that much into downloading movies, but when I do its always from big corporations that I know already made a few million off of it anyway. I download songs a fair bit too, but thats only because dumbshit CDPlus never has anything in stock (I went there the other day, they'd actually lost all of their CCR) and if you order it in theres about a 1 in 10 chance you'll ever get it. Then I might just go download whatever songs I want, but I'd never do that to an indipendant artist, plain and simple. As for that one dudes Artist shouldn't want money argument, I don't think people need to get rich off it, but they should be able to make a living. Like I saw an interview once with Kurt Cobain that summed up my thoughts pretty well, he was saying they didn't want to get rich, they just wanted enough to record and pay rent and travel and shit. Christ, now I'm pissed off.
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punkrockpoet
Joined: Jun 19 2007
Location: backwoods, PA
Posts: 17
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At the risk of incurring the wrath of many of the regular posters on the board, I'm going to have to say that there are ups and downs of both of the arguments. I make music with my band and have been doing it one way or another for the last 10 years. When we set out to record our first album, we set a goal of trying to break even and make back what we put into it (recording, production, and manufacturing wise...that goal didn't include recovering the thousands of dollars that we spent on equipment, gas, promotional packages). We did that and even made a few extra bucks on top of it. But the reason that we set the goal at just breaking even (which it seems that's all that Darkmaze is really concerned about) was because we knew that if someone liked it enough to put it online or make hundreds of burned copies of it, that we weren't going to be able to do anything to stop it. To help to try and find an upside to this Maze, just think "what if a friend, of a friend, of a friend, of George Lucas pirates it and passes it along, then you can make any movie you want and not have to worry about time, money, or paying crew. Long shot, yeah...but stranger things have happened. I just feel that the more people that hear our music, the better chance we have at being able to continue to make it. But that's just me...I don't know what Darkmaze's goals were for this project, and if it was to make a fortune and retire comfortably, then so be it, that's his choice and he SHOULD be pissed about people stealing from him. That said, it sucks to have your heart and soul pirated and tough to understand why people pirate independent projects when 1) most of the time the cost of attaining said project legally is minimal at best, and 2) the person just want to try and make a living doing what they love.
P.S - I consider myself a very very serious musician, and I would take a million dollar contract in a heartbeat if it means I can fully devote myself physically and creatively to my passion. For me that's just common sense. Especially if it means I can get me ass out of this damn cubicle.
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DarkMaze
Joined: Feb 24 2006
Posts: 2578
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Zounds, quite the discussion!
To clarify a couple of things from my end: My concern here is not that I'm not making the money I wanted to, but rather that people are essentially stealing my film. I'm confident I'll make my money back, but the people who steal my movie are assholes.
Now ideally I'd love for it to sell like gangbusters, but that's a separate issue. As I said, I can't make a movie like that again without shelling out some serious cash, and that will probably require getting investors to allow me make something that's of high enough quality to really get out on the market.
Now, with regard to this whole "art" issue... Here's the thing. If you just want to make music/movies/art/whatever purely for yourself, as a hobby, with no real concern to how well it sells or making a living doing it, as B.B. seems to, that's absolutely cool -- there's nothing wrong with that. But if you want to make a living off it, it's different. What a lot of wannabe-professional artists don't understand is that they're creating a product. It therefore needs to be treated like one. Art or not, you're trying to reach a target audience and you have to always keep that in mind. You market a film like any other product.
Now before anyone screams "OMG YOUR JUST IN IT FOR DA MONEYZ," realize that these things are not mutually exclusive. I could probably list a hundred choices off the top of my head that I made during the production of Press Start that were made for marketing reasons, and yet they had nothing to do with me making the most entertaining movie I could -- something I'd want to see myself. Same goes for any art form. A good marketing strategy gets the word out, gets your name out, gets people to buy your product, and brings you one step closer to making a living doing it.
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Ross Rifle
Title: Rock N Roll God
Joined: Oct 29 2006
Location: Chilliwack, BC
Posts: 4844
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Fair enough Syd...
I kinda have that tendency to keep stuff going longer than it has to and taking things a little too far
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Chwoka
Joined: Jun 03 2007
Posts: 95
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You know what would be a real "SCREW YOU!" to pirates who say "The shipping costs are too high!"
Send 'em it over the internet.
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B.B.King
Title: Total Fucking Loser
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: Truck stops and gay bars
Posts: 595
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" Press start : the movie - 73.4% complete"
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I am a worthless piece of crap. |
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Char Aznable
Title: Char Classic™
Joined: Jul 24 2006
Location: Robot Boombox HQ
Posts: 7542
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Congratulations. You have now opened yourself up for litigation. Also, you are a giant douchebag who deserves to die violently.
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jonnymorgue
Title: Nothing Special
Joined: Oct 25 2006
Posts: 396
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Anyone else find it odd how B.B. boasts his honorable actions for not putting a high price on his art, and thus justifies his illegal actions, in this case admittedly stealing from another artist? How honorable is that? Really?
Thankfully more people will have heard of Press Start and give a damn about DM's art than the "art" of some dishonorable asshole hiding behind a bit torrent client and supposedly loose laws concerning downloading copyrighted works in another country.
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Valdronius
Moderator
Title: SydLexia COO
Joined: Aug 22 2005
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 4465
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Both sides of this argument have been thoroughly discussed. The only place left to go is outright flaming. Therefore...
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| Klimbatize wrote: |
| A Hispanic dude living in Arizona knows a lot of Latinas? That's fucking odd. |
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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| punkrockpoet wrote: |
| At the risk of incurring the wrath of many of the regular posters on the board, I'm going to have to say that there are ups and downs of both of the arguments. |
Don't ever feel like you can't voice your opinion here just because it's different from what the veteran posters are saying. As long as you have a coherent, rational point to make (which you did), your opinion will always be welcome.
As for your George Lucas scenario, I'm not sure that would be helpful. I don't think Lucas would get the video game references. Now if the movie somehow made its way into the hands of Seth Green, that's a different story entirely.
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Char Aznable
Title: Char Classic™
Joined: Jul 24 2006
Location: Robot Boombox HQ
Posts: 7542
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Hmm, a negated lock. Never seen one.
Anyway, yeah. Popular opinion isn't always something to be respected. In fact, it usually isn't.
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Syd Lexia
Site Admin
Title: Pop Culture Junkie
Joined: Jul 30 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
Posts: 24887
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| Char Aznable wrote: |
Hmm, a negated lock. Never seen one.
Anyway, yeah. Popular opinion isn't always something to be respected. In fact, it usually isn't. |
Well, the thread was locked to give a certain person a chance to stop being a selfish douchebag. That didn't happen, and that person is gone now, so I figured I'd reopen the thread.
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