Again, an example of the Japanese systematic failure to address archaic Confucian ideology prevalent in its academics, economics and mental health.
The Opponent
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Joined: Feb 24 2010
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Posted:
Feb 27 2015 04:44 pm
sidewaydriver wrote:
I didn't see any goat fucking in that simulator. But Nintendo will be wise enough to include it in theirs. INNOVASHUN.
Just mod Goat Simulator. It'll be easier.
Probable Muppet wrote:
Again, an example of the Japanese systematic failure to address archaic Confucian ideology prevalent in its academics, economics and mental health.
What gets me is the number of Western people who acknowledge the problem and think they're going to be the ones who can fix it by writing essays for Western audiences but actually targeted to the Japanese. At best it gets people talking about problems half a world away but they are literally powerless to change a thing about a culture they hardly understand in the first place.
I'm not a bad enough dude, but I am an edgy little shit. I'll do what I can.
Probable Muppet
Joined: Aug 05 2008
Location: CA
Posts: 867
Posted:
Feb 27 2015 04:53 pm
The-Excel wrote:
Probable Muppet wrote:
Again, an example of the Japanese systematic failure to address archaic Confucian ideology prevalent in its academics, economics and mental health.
What gets me is the number of Western people who acknowledge the problem and think they're going to be the ones who can fix it by writing essays for Western audiences but actually targeted to the Japanese. At best it gets people talking about problems half a world away but they are literally powerless to change a thing about a culture they hardly understand in the first place.
Sorry, maybe I misunderstand but what western people? These issues are mostly addressed by psychiatrists, psychologists, economists and other professionals within Japan.
Are you referring to that documentary?
And regardless of our "powerlessness" to address issues half a world away it's still fun to compare and contrast. All nation states have issues but the Japanese tend to interest me as they are for lack of a better word perverse, yet at the same time I have a lot of respect for them.
I would argue we are not powerless either. The reason why the Japanese prospered after losing to the U.S. In World War II is due to the restrictions placed upon Japan when it surrendered. Consequently they were not allowed to militarize and the U.S. has been the De Facto military presence/national defense for the Japanese for decades. This allowed them to pour their money into economical development and the world is a better place for it, but there are still feudalistic values that ultimately harm the Japanese culture in place within its institutions. The Japanese and US have an odd mutually symbiotic culture.
It should be obvious that the U.S. has no problem in attempting to fix other countries half a world away. However, Western culture has not interfered with Japan's current day policies as it has no reason to.
North Korea on the other hand. Don't get me started on that. =)
Real question is, what's wrong with talking?
The Opponent
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Posted:
Feb 28 2015 02:37 pm
I was talking about those people who spend more time on social media than at places where they can do things that they say we should be doing.
I'm not a bad enough dude, but I am an edgy little shit. I'll do what I can.
sidewaydriver
2010 SLF Tag Champ
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Posted:
Feb 28 2015 06:17 pm
Excel, I could kiss you for that statement. I hate those hashtag warriors.
Shake it, Quake it, Space Kaboom.
Probable Muppet
Joined: Aug 05 2008
Location: CA
Posts: 867
Posted:
Feb 28 2015 06:22 pm
sidewaydriver wrote:
Excel, I could kiss you for that statement. I hate those hashtag warriors.
Agree.
Syd Lexia
Site Admin
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Posted:
Feb 28 2015 07:47 pm
The-Excel wrote:
I was talking about those people who spend more time on social media than at places where they can do things that they say we should be doing.
What about fucking Kamiya? Guy spends way too much time whining like a bitch on the internet at English-speaking people whom he barely understands.
Also, someone explain to me the long-winded rant about Japanese culture. Japan still makes the best video games. Not Capcom, mind you, but Japan. Name one good major retail release from a Western video game company in the last few years. I sure as fuck can't. Can name tons of Japanese ones though.
I was talking about those people who spend more time on social media than at places where they can do things that they say we should be doing.
What about fucking Kamiya? Guy spends way too much time whining like a bitch on the internet at English-speaking people whom he barely understands.
Also, someone explain to me the long-winded rant about Japanese culture. Japan still makes the best video games. Not Capcom, mind you, but Japan. Name one good major retail release from a Western video game company in the last few years. I sure as fuck can't. Can name tons of Japanese ones though.
I agree with you on Kamiya, but really? Name some of those quality games from Japan...
I would not disagree with you when it comes to Nintendo stuff but honestly, what other titles?
Secondly, Kojima is one of the worst game designers ever. He is the fucking Michael Bay of video games.
I'm not going to explain my "long-winded rant" on Japanese culture as I already did so. Maybe argue a point instead of ambiguously asking for an explanation with no context?
It comes down to opinion but I can name several western games that I consider higher quality and are far more innovative than the shit pushed out from Japanese developers.
Honestly though, did I somehow offend you as what you might perceive as an attack on Japanese culture? It was not my intention to do so. However, what I posted is factual and I defend my stance on these issues and subsequently, it's effect on Japanese game development.
I can't help but think that pretty much everything I post pisses you off Syd. Why?
Cameron
Title: :O � O:
Joined: Feb 01 2008
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4632
Posted:
Feb 28 2015 09:13 pm
Syd Lexia wrote:
Also, someone explain to me the long-winded rant about Japanese culture. Japan still makes the best video games. Not Capcom, mind you, but Japan. Name one good major retail release from a Western video game company in the last few years. I sure as fuck can't. Can name tons of Japanese ones though.
My preference for indie games is well documented, but I feel like saying that Japan makes the best retail games is like saying that crabs is the best venereal disease; while they're clearly the best of their respective categories, I still feel like, on the whole, retail games have become much less interesting, both artistically and gameplay-wise, than indie games, and I haven't noticed Japan putting out quite the influx of amazing indie games that American developers have.
Syd Lexia
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Posted:
Feb 28 2015 10:20 pm
Quality games from Japan? Pretty much anything Atlus, Platinum, NIS, Xseed, Arc System Works, Namco, or Nintendo is doing. There are very few games I bother to play anymore that aren't published by these companies.
Sometimes I like indie games, sometimes I don't. I don't mean specific games, I mean the notion in general.
Nintendo is sometimes criticized for cashing in on nostalgia. Regurgitating variations on the same theme over and over, with a different coat of paint.
Maybe that's true. On my non-cynical days, I tend to disagree. On my more cynical days, maybe I agree. But what I do know is this: indie games are doing the exact same thing, ESPECIALLY indie platformers. Oh look, we made a game that looks all retro and shit and made the controls intentionally a little clunky too. How many fucking times are we going to play this one game. Like 50 of these fucking indie platformers come out a year, and that's a low number. At least Nintendo has the decency to stagger its releases.
The best minds are not in indie gaming. There's boundless passion and there's some creativity, but there's no real ingenuity. Thomas Was Alone was good for a couple playthroughs. The Stanley Parable was cute. Papers Please was a great time-waster. There are two main types of indie games: games trying to BE different, and games trying to LOOK different. The indie games that try to BE different tend to accomplish this goal at the expense of replayability and game length. The indie games trying to LOOK different draw you in with quirky visuals, with "quirky" far too often simply meaning "retro-inspired".
There are two main types of indie games: games trying to BE different, and games trying to LOOK different. The indie games that try to BE different tend to accomplish this goal at the expense of replayability and game length. The indie games trying to LOOK different draw you in with quirky visuals, with "quirky" far too often simply meaning "retro-inspired".
I can think of a number of games that defy at least one or both of these descriptions; the first one coming to mind being Hotline Miami. I can't say much about indie platformers, though, as I'm admittedly not that interested in platformers in general. I can say there are a lot of innovative and fun indie games outside of those, though.
I definitely have to disagree about Papers, Please, as well, if only because I think describing it as a mere "time-waster" is kind of discrediting it on multiple levels - how fun and intense it is to play, the emotional impact of the storyline, its overall themes, etc.
JoshWoodzy
Joined: May 22 2008
Location: Goshen, VA
Posts: 6544
Posted:
Feb 28 2015 11:12 pm
I dunno, I feel like other than a few semi-decent to decent Nintendo games, Japan puts out very little I give a shit about anymore. The rest of the stuff I used to care about barely resemble themselves anymore. Final Fantasy is like a teenage girls soap opera, Dragon Quest is basically the same fucking game since Dragon Quest IV, Metal Gear series is too convoluted to invest in anymore, Resident Evil we won't even fucking talk about, so yeah, I just happen to be having more fun with western games for the first time since I was playing PC RPG's back in the day. Japan has to do something to switch things up because I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way.
Probable Muppet
Joined: Aug 05 2008
Location: CA
Posts: 867
Posted:
Mar 01 2015 01:20 am
Syd Lexia wrote:
Quality games from Japan? Pretty much anything Atlus, Platinum, NIS, Xseed, Arc System Works, Namco, or Nintendo is doing.
Yeah I pretty much buy every game released by the Japanese companies that you just stated are quality and would add From Software to that list and concede/agree. All make great games. However the same thing could be said about most of these companies in regards to pushing out games in exploiting nostalgia also.
I still find it baffling however that you don't see any value in western video game studios. There are plenty of titles I play from the west. I frankly don't care where a game comes from as long as it is entertaining. It just happens that most of the games I currently play are western release AAA titles or indies.
The over proliferation argument of indies is also invalid. As there are just as many titles from the Japanese that are made by their AAAs that are shit compared to some of the indie games made by smaller teams with smaller budgets that are much higher quality in comparison. Sure there are a ton of indies that are shit or blatant copies and clones of other popular games but whatever, at least they get the opportunity to try for their piece of the pie. The Japanese don't.
Have you ever sold an indie game you spent 2 weeks as a school project designing for 10,000 dollars? Cuz I did, next time you visit Sea World you might play my game without even knowing it...
This does not happen in Japan...
Again I'm a little disappointed with your comment regarding my long-winded post about Japanese culture. Frankly, that has a lot to do with the state of the video game industry in Japan and I don't know how you can't see why and I don't know how I could make this more clear. There is little innovation in the game industry coming out of Japan these days and this has been the case for years if not decades now.
Syd Lexia wrote:
There are two main types of indie games: games trying to BE different, and games trying to LOOK different. The indie games that try to BE different tend to accomplish this goal at the expense of replayability and game length. The indie games trying to LOOK different draw you in with quirky visuals, with "quirky" far too often simply meaning "retro-inspired".
So what? I prefer this over Japanese games that are iterative, take no risks and all look the same and prefer to play it safe.
Do you not see that you are actually arguing against yourself in the points you are trying to make and invalidating your arguments within a single post?
Syd Lexia
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Posted:
Mar 01 2015 07:26 am
I think the biggest problem Japanese companies have is the little-to-no effort they put into Western marketing these days. Unless you're watching Cartoon Network, you won't see Nintendo commercials.
And you never see commercials from any of those other companies. But when there's a new Assassin's Creed, CoD, or Batman out, there are sure as heck commercials for that.
Also, I guess I'd like to revise my initial statement to concede Warner Interactive is a very good publisher.
I think the biggest problem Japanese companies have is the little-to-no effort they put into Western marketing these days. Unless you're watching Cartoon Network, you won't see Nintendo commercials.
And you never see commercials from any of those other companies. But when there's a new Assassin's Creed, CoD, or Batman out, there are sure as heck commercials for that.
Also, I guess I'd like to revise my initial statement to concede Warner Interactive is a very good publisher.
I'm pretty certain nobody today buys games based on commercials they might see watching TV, regardless of age demographics ect. and have not done so since like the early 90s...
I mean honestly who here buys games based on a commercial they see on TV or knows anybody that has done so?
It is not a problem with the marketing of Japanese games. Again, it is far more complex, it comes down to Japanese developers failing to evovle as I have already stated.
Look at Square/Enix's response to the critical reception of FF 13. They try to defend themselves by saying that western culture did not appreciate the game due to "cultural" differences. Bullshit, it's simply a shitty game.
Final Fantasy 12 was specifically designed as a halfed ass mashup of WoW and CoD and this was admittedly stated by its dev's as intentional from day one. They attempted to turn Final Fantasy into a game that would please western audiences and failed hard.
Don't get me started on the newest Final Fantasy MMO (14). It was a train wreck when it came out and was actually developed by the Chinese. Pretty much the all time worst release in the history of the franchise.
This sort of sycophantic idealism is not specific to just Square/Enix. Another example:
Hudson Soft wants to make a new Bomberman game. So a bunch of japanese executives sitting around in a room misguidedly decide to target a western audience and the result is Bomberman: Act Zero, a fucking terrible game and an embarrassing attempt to target said western audience. Consequently Hudson Soft was ruined.
Maybe the fact the PSN/Nintendo fails to publish certain titles outside of Japan on their online services could perhaps futher contribute to a cultural gap, that and their netcode being fucking abysmal...
Again I'm sorry Syd but are actually attempting to make a point, because I just do not see any relevant logic in your responses at all...
Edit: I'm not trying to be an asshole, and I am quite aware that I might be perceived as one or at the very least somewhat of an egomaniac. I honestly have no problem being identified as either but at the same time I can be an asshole and will willing apologize when I cross that line, such as in a recent thread in response to GoergeTaylor. A lot can be lost in translation over the Internet I fear. My intention is not to offend you, however, I am quite knowledgeable on certain subjects and have no issue getting into frivolous Internet fights as it is quite fun.
😄
Syd Lexia
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Posted:
Mar 01 2015 12:14 pm
I'm on my phone, don't have time to type out a proper response, but you're wrong. On multiple counts. ESPECIALLY that there's no over-proliferation of indie games. You're delusional if you believe that.
And Cameron, Hotline Miami invalidates my argument... really? The game with NES style graphics? The super derivative mess with a story so stupid it makes Kojima look like Victor Hugo?
Syd hits the nail on the head about indie games. I hate that meta, self referential retro shit. Indies like to tout themselves as groundbreaking when they come up with some stupid mechanic or idea that is so specific it only works for that one game and it usually has no lasting appeal. Another style they like to abuse is that minimalistic shadow style. They're usually puzzle platformers. They always act like they're so artistic and that they invented it. That and the intentional retro style just seem flat out lazy to me. Indies are just one big circle jerk.
Shake it, Quake it, Space Kaboom.
JoshWoodzy
Joined: May 22 2008
Location: Goshen, VA
Posts: 6544
Posted:
Mar 01 2015 01:28 pm
I don't even understand how there is an argument. Most Japanese devs, for at least the last decade, have gotten lazy as fuck, complacent, and exude no creativity. You can throw out niche companies all you want, it doesn't change the fact that even THOSE companies are just banking on nostalgia and throwing out the same shit and sequels with very little difference in their predecessors.
Atlus, Platinum, NIS, Xseed, Arc System Works? You're really gonna throw out some of the most niche companies in existence to say that Japanese devs are fine and there's nothing wrong? Jesus Christ.
Of course there's problems in the West too, obviously. But let's not pretend that Japan is the mecca of fucking creativity and the savior of video games. For people that don't give a shit about goofy otaku shoot 'em ups, fighting games that all look the same, or samey samey JRPG bullshit, those companies don't even exist.
Cameron
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Joined: Feb 01 2008
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4632
Posted:
Mar 01 2015 02:00 pm
Syd Lexia wrote:
And Cameron, Hotline Miami invalidates my argument... really? The game with NES style graphics? The super derivative mess with a story so stupid it makes Kojima look like Victor Hugo?
Yes. I pretty much disagree with everything in this sentence. I fail to see how, becuase the game is pixellated, it resembles NES graphics. Honestly, I don't remember any NES games that had constantly tilting environments and backgrounds with sickly neon colors. Derivative of what? I really enjoy the story, but that's subjective opinion, and I can't argue with yours on that front. I also enjoy the majority of Kojima's stories, though.
I guess my main problem with people trying to trash the indie game format as a whole is, while there is indeed a majority of indie games that don't provide a 100% entirely new experience with eye-exploding graphics, there are even less retail releases that offer an experience any more innovative than games I enjoy on Steam, for example. The few retail releases I've engaged in recently have been really, really good, but the sheer quantity of indie games out there is much, much higher in comparison. I don't think one medium is necessarily "better" than the other, but I find the implication that there have been more quality retail games than indie games, say, over the past year, to be highly amusing.
JoshWoodzy wrote:
Of course there's problems in the West too, obviously. But let's not pretend that Japan is the mecca of fucking creativity and the savior of video games. For people that don't give a shit about goofy otaku shoot 'em ups, fighting games that all look the same, or samey samey JRPG bullshit, those companies don't even exist.
This is what I was thinking as well. The problem with treating Japanese developers as the paragon of modern entertainment is that 70% of the games they put out don't fall into genres that I'm interested in the slightest.
Syd Lexia wrote:
I think the biggest problem Japanese companies have is the little-to-no effort they put into Western marketing these days. Unless you're watching Cartoon Network, you won't see Nintendo commercials.
I think it's weird that TV commercials are your gold standard for video game advertising; I honestly pretty much never saw TV commercials for video games at all until about three or four years ago (and I've definitely seen the same Smash Bros. commercial at least ten times in the past two months). I had assumed game companies advertised mainly through print and online articles.
sidewaydriver wrote:
Syd hits the nail on the head about indie games. I hate that meta, self referential retro shit. Indies like to tout themselves as groundbreaking when they come up with some stupid mechanic or idea that is so specific it only works for that one game and it usually has no lasting appeal. Another style they like to abuse is that minimalistic shadow style. They're usually puzzle platformers. They always act like they're so artistic and that they invented it. That and the intentional retro style just seem flat out lazy to me. Indies are just one big circle jerk.
You guys should stop playing platformers. There are a lot of indie games out there that utilize the popular retro fetish, but I guess I don't really mind because I don't necessarily care about graphics as much either way.
sidewaydriver
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Title: ( ͡� 
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Posts: 6160
Posted:
Mar 01 2015 02:00 pm
Just go into Game Stop, look at the PS3 section, and tell me how many generic ass anime JRPG games you find. There's like a hundred of them and I've never heard of a single one.
Shake it, Quake it, Space Kaboom.
sidewaydriver
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Title: ( ͡� 
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Posts: 6160
Posted:
Mar 01 2015 02:37 pm
Cameron wrote:
You guys should stop playing platformers. There are a lot of indie games out there that utilize the popular retro fetish, but I guess I don't really mind because I don't necessarily care about graphics as much either way.
If you think I'm complaining about the graphics then you've missed my point. I'm complaining about the lazy style. Retro has been done to death and it's unoriginal. The novelty has worn off and it's no longer comes across as sincere. Back then those kinds of graphics were the best we could do. Not to say they're bad but there's no long a reason to do those kinds of graphics unless you have no creativity and just have to copy things you already know.
Shake it, Quake it, Space Kaboom.
Probable Muppet
Joined: Aug 05 2008
Location: CA
Posts: 867
Posted:
Mar 01 2015 02:54 pm
Wow. You are calling me delusional? I admit and previously stated that there is a problem with indie game dev's cloning and copying more popular titles, and this includes retro games. However, this is a none issue. Fucking don't buy them then, yet it appears you do.
Some people like those indie retro throwbacks, Shovel Knight, Rogue Legacy, Retro City Rampage Ect. are damn good games and indie developed retro titles.
It's simple as this, I like video games. Western, Eastern, indie or otherwise. All that matters is the quality of the game. However, I stand by my arguments regarding current Japanese game development issues.
What is delusional to me is someone that completely dismisses all western/indie games and has a strange propensity to bow down to Japanese developers as being the gods of game design and yet fails to see the decline in their quality and lack of innovation over the last few years.
Yeah that makes sense. If your a weeaboo/otaku hypocrite. Is this the case?
And Woodzy/Cam, thank you I agree. I feel like I'm wasting my time at this point. However Syd I'm interested in what other things I'm "wrong about on multiple counts" as this could prove to be quite hilarious.
/engage assholemode
sidewaydriver
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Title: ( ͡� 
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Posted:
Mar 01 2015 03:02 pm
Shovel Knight is an example of a good indie game. It had a throwback look to it but it had more to it then a "LOL RETRO IS COOL I GREW UP PLAYING NINTENDO" thing to it. It had it's own style and it didn't come across as retro to me. It didn't seem like it was trying to pretend to be an 8-bit NES game.
Shake it, Quake it, Space Kaboom.
Probable Muppet
Joined: Aug 05 2008
Location: CA
Posts: 867
Posted:
Mar 02 2015 07:08 am
sidewaydriver wrote:
Shovel Knight is an example of a good indie game. It had a throwback look to it but it had more to it then a "LOL RETRO IS COOL I GREW UP PLAYING NINTENDO" thing to it. It had it's own style and it didn't come across as retro to me. It didn't seem like it was trying to pretend to be an 8-bit NES game.
Really, you don't see it as a retro indie title?
---------------
"Shovel Knight attempts to mimic gameplay and graphics like those seen in games developed for the Nintendo Entertainment System,[5] and for this it achieved critical acclaim and was nominated for and won various yearly gaming awards."
"As a 2D side-scrolling platform game, Shovel Knight features 8-bit graphics reminiscent of classic video games. The game’s color scheme closely matches the Nintendo Entertainment System’s original color palette."
"Shovel Knight is the first video game developed by Yacht Club Games, directed by Sean Velasco. Velasco has stated that the game draws heavy influence from NES games, specifically Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse, DuckTales, Super Mario Bros. 3, and the Mega Man titles."
---------------
Shovel Knight is the very definition of an indie retro throwback title. I'm glad that you and I agree that it is a fun game and "LOL RETRO IS COOL I GREW UP PLAYING NINTENDO" is why I like the game, so what?
Speaking of "LOL RETRO IS COOL I GREW UP PLAYING NINTENDO". What do you think of Mega Man 9/10 Syd? According to you these titles should apply to your arguments regarding exploiting nostalgia and retro gaming. But oops...
From the Mega Man 9 thread:
Syd Lexia wrote:
The game will most likely be 2D. Anything else would be fucking blasphemy..
When it was revealed to be a retro throwback:
Syd Lexia wrote:
I have a massive hard-on right now. Massive..
The following is pretty much the most ignorant and hypocritical thing you have posted so far:
Syd Lexia wrote:
The best minds are not in indie gaming. There's boundless passion and there's some creativity, but there's no real ingenuity.
Just lulzy...
Continue to use any absence of logic and invalidate yourself In your own arguments; it's really working out for you quite well so far, don't you think?
Probable Muppet wrote:
However Syd I'm interested in what other things I'm "wrong about on multiple counts" as this could prove to be quite hilarious.
😊
Some indie games far higher in quality than anything released from the Japanese:
"Come at me 'bro' ", I dare you . I am certain you are going to lose in arguing against me, as you already have. Or you'll just stop posting in this thread and actively/ passively aggressively continue to avoid making sensical responses regarding this topic. Have fun exclusively playing Japanese titles, it's just sad. You are losing out in your refusal and ignorance regarding video game culture outside of Japan.
Cattivo
Joined: Apr 14 2006
Location: Lake Michigan
Posts: 3332
Posted:
Mar 02 2015 11:59 am
Probable Muppet wrote:
You are a Smashing Pumpkins fan? I don't know why but this surprises me. I love their first five albums but Billy Corgan has unfortunately become an asshole and has burned too many bridges. He is very talented but sometimes ego transcends talent. Smashing Pumpkins is a studio band and are absolutely shit live. Have you ever seen them play live? He is incapable of performing live.
Yeah, no disgreement there. Not happy with what Corgan has become. He's way beyond the tolerance level for eccentric artist at this point.
Sadly, I never saw them live. In high school, while I enjoyed SP, I didn't get into as much as other bands after Siamese Dream because I didn't want to, and didn't have the money to throw the extra dough down on a double album for Melon Collie, unfortunately. As a result, I was more concerned with seeing Stabbing Westward, Offspring, Green Day, and Local H in concert, along with music festivals the local radio stations ran. Got into them more at the end of college when I had more money. At that point they were breaking up and I tried to see them in their two last concerts, but couldn't get anyone to go with me, so I listened to the stadium one on the radio while it was happening (the luck of being in the Chicago area). I've had no desire to see them (i.e., Billy) since the new stuff started coming out.
We now return to the Western vs. Japanese game discussion.
I fail to see how, becuase the game is pixellated, it resembles NES graphics. Honestly, I don't remember any NES games that had constantly tilting environments and backgrounds with sickly neon colors. Derivative of what? I really enjoy the story, but that's subjective opinion, and I can't argue with yours on that front. I also enjoy the majority of Kojima's stories, though.
There are a lot of indie games out there that utilize the popular retro fetish, but I guess I don't really mind because I don't necessarily care about graphics as much either way.
