SydLexia.com - The Forums :: View topic - A brief anecdote about burning the flag and treason

Joined: Sep 17 2007 Location: The Opium Trail Posts: 3475

So I was watching Bill Hicks the other day, talking about the insane people who think burning the flag is treason, and how it's an insult to all of our soldiers, etc. etc.

The first time I heard about burning the flag, it was at summer camp, and that it was something you were supposed to do if you dropped the flag while carrying it. Yes, according to my camp counselors, apparently these nationalist nuts are supposed to burn the flag if it touches the ground while being carried.

Anybody else ever hear something like this?

Posted: Jul 15 2009 05:27 pm

I was in Cub Scouts for 1 year before quitting (got in a fight with the Scout master's son.....I won). But I do actually recall something about if you drop the flag you have to burn it. And the "proper" way to dispose of an old, worn out flag is to fold it neatly and burn it with lighter fluid.

So I suppose these uber-nationalist guys are more upset over the reason for the burning, rather than the act.

Posted: Jul 15 2009 05:57 pm

Yeah, I remember hearing something about how if you dropped the flag it had to be burned.

Posted: Jul 15 2009 07:00 pm

I don't know about *dropping* the flag warranting a burning (I've dropped flags before while on colorguard detail, and we cleaned it afterward but never had to burn it), but I do know that I have burned several flags in my lifetime--none of them in protest, although I do support flag burning as a legal expression of free speech. I'm not a fan of it, but I won't stop people from doing it and don't think anyone else should either. Ahem, back on topic, the proper way to dispose of a flag that is torn, faded, or otherwise unfit for display is by burning. (From the United States Flag Code: "The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning." http://www.afa.org/members/uscode.asp ). The way we do it in the Army is by folding it, lighting it, and then all soldiers present hold a salute while Taps is played.

To get back on the soapbox for a moment just because I can, while burning the flag in protest doesn't anger me all that much, I'll tell you what does: people flying torn or horridly faded flags. Either buy a new flag, or don't fly one at all. Don't insult it by showing off one that's got no business being publicly displayed. God I hate that. Its gotten to the point where I actually leave notes on people's doors, and refuse to patronize businesses until they remove or fix it. It's a little thing yeah, but its a personal pet peeve of mine. (Technically you aren't supposed to fly the flag at night either, without proper illumination, but I can forgive that one since not everyone has the time to raise and lower it every day, and since it doesn't strike me as terribly disrespectful.)

Posted: Jul 15 2009 07:08 pm

What else aren't you supposed to do? Aren't you supposed to take it down if it rains or something. I hear a lot of weird things. A list of these things might help my patriotism.

Joined: Sep 17 2007 Location: The Opium Trail Posts: 3475

SoldierHawk wrote:

To get back on the soapbox for a moment just because I can, while burning the flag in protest doesn't anger me all that much, I'll tell you what does: people flying torn or horridly faded flags. Either buy a new flag, or don't fly one at all. Don't insult it by showing off one that's got no business being publicly displayed. God I hate that. Its gotten to the point where I actually leave notes on people's doors, and refuse to patronize businesses until they remove or fix it. It's a little thing yeah, but its a personal pet peeve of mine. (Technically you aren't supposed to fly the flag at night either, without proper illumination, but I can forgive that one since not everyone has the time to raise and lower it every day, and since it doesn't strike me as terribly disrespectful.)

But couldn't flying an old, battered flag be interpreted representation of "Yea our country is old, and it's taken some shit over the years, but it's still here beyotch!!" I mean hell, if we have to fly a brand new flag every, say, four years, then shouldn't that mean we should change our government every four years?

Posted: Jul 15 2009 07:18 pm

Man, you people are crazy. Patritiosm is so overrated in your country....

Posted: Jul 15 2009 07:20 pm

It keeps us from leaving the country and ruining yours so watch your mouth.

Joined: Sep 17 2007 Location: The Opium Trail Posts: 3475

Douche McCallister wrote:

It keeps us from leaving the country and ruining yours so watch your mouth.

Posted: Jul 15 2009 08:49 pm

WAUSAU, Wis. – An American flag flown upside down as a protest in a northern Wisconsin village was seized by police before a Fourth of July parade and the businessman who flew it — an Iraq war veteran — claims the officers trespassed and stole his property.

A day after the parade, police returned the flag and the man's protest — over a liquor license — continued.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin is considering legal action against the village of Crivitz for violating Vito Congine Jr.'s' First Amendment rights, Executive Director Chris Ahmuty said.

"It is not often that you see something this blatant," Ahmuty said.

In mid-June, Congine, 46, began flying the flag upside down — an accepted way to signal distress — outside the restaurant he wants to open in Crivitz, a village of about 1,000 people some 65 miles north of Green Bay.

He said his distress is likely bankruptcy because the village board refused to grant him a liquor license after he spent nearly $200,000 to buy and remodel a downtown building for an Italian supper club.

Congine's upside-down-flag represents distress to him; to others in town, it represents disrespect of the flag.

Hours before a Fourth of July parade, four police officers went to Congine's property and removed the flag under the advice of Marinette County District Attorney Allen Brey.

Neighbor Steven Klein watched in disbelief.

"I said, 'What are you doing?' Klein said. "They said, 'It is none of your business.'"

The next day, police returned the flag.

Brey declined comment Friday.

Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July.

"It is illegal to cause a disruption," he said.

The parade went on without any problems, Kanikula said.

Village President John Deschane, 60, an Army veteran who served in Vietnam, said many people in town believe it's disrespectful to fly the flag upside down.

"If he wants to protest, let him protest but find a different way to do it," Deschane said.

Congine, a Marine veteran who served in Iraq in 2004, said he intends to keep flying the flag upside down.

"It is pretty bad when I go and fight a tyrannical government somewhere else," Congine said, "and then I come home to find it right here at my front door."

Posted: Jul 15 2009 09:13 pm

ha, i just drove by crivitz this past weekend.

Joined: May 22 2008 Location: Goshen, VA Posts: 6544

I see nothing wrong with a slightly tattered flag being flown. My dad was in Vietnam and still flies the same sort of faded flag that he brought back from the war, and no one should tell him what he can't do with a flag he personally feels so strongly about.

Posted: Jul 15 2009 11:52 pm

How do you guys feel about this? Baiting

UsaSatsui's Youtube Channel · Posted: Jul 16 2009 12:13 am

Three things:

1) You do not need to dispose of a flag that has touched the ground. Simply getting a little dirt on the flag is not enough to deem it unsuitable for flying, and I've never, ever see dirt strong enough to damage a flag that badly with a touch. Plus, you are allowed to wash your flag.

2) The US Code that applies to the proper display and such of the flag does not, as far as I know, have any penalties associated with not following it, and in fact is probably completely unenforceable.

3) If you must burn a flag in protest, just remember that flag you're burning symbolizes a place where you're allowed to burn it in protest...and even if the neo-cons got their way, the penalty would probably be at most a fine or a few days in jail. In some countries, they torture you to death for that shit.

Posted: Jul 16 2009 12:17 am

Blackout wrote:

How do you guys feel about this?

"If you can't shoot, go back to Woodstock hippie" -Cartman.

Posted: Jul 16 2009 03:05 am

Usa does have a point. The Flag Code isn't law as far as I know; you're not going to be arrested for breaking it. If that was the case, anyone wearing a Stars and Stripes tee shirt, swimsuit or towel or whatever would be arrested, because one of the tenants is that the flag should never be worn as an article of clothing.

Douche, to answer your question, you're correct that a flag should not be flown in inclement weather, unless the flag is specifically made of all-weather material (most flags nowadays are all-weather, actually, I think.)

JRA, I suppose if someone was specifically flying a tattered flag for reasons of protest, it would count. But 99.9% of people who do it aren't trying to make a statement. They either don't know their flag is damaged (which is why I leave notes when I find flags like that), or they just don't care enough or don't have the time/inclination/whatever to fix it or at least take it down. (I suppose some might think that "a damaged flag is better than no flag," but that's not the case.)

Josh, your father has kind of a strange situation. It reminds me a bit of the original Star Spangled Banner they display in the Smithsonian, the one that inspired our National Anthem. Of course, having been through a huge battle and being as old as is it the thing is falling apart. They don't fly it on a pole, but they raise it (indoors) as a banner once an hour as they play the anthem. Your dad's special flag seems kind of like that. If I was in his situation, I would absolutely display the flag, but I wouldn't fly it from a pole or anything. In addition to damaging it further, it just looks bad, no matter how noble the intention behind it is, just because someone passing on the street like me who notices those things wouldn't know the meaning or story behind it. It would just look like...a beat up flag that shouldn't be flown. *shrug*. Obviously, no disrespect is intended towards your dad in any way.

The upside-down flag thing is semi-akin to burning, I guess, although its a much more palatable way of getting a protest-point across. Whether you agree with the guy or not, the way he's trying to express his views makes sense, at least to me.

Joined: Dec 06 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 11244

People should be happy that they have the right to do whatever they want with it since that is why it is so meaningful as a symbol.

Be happy that the rules that apply to the Torah do not apply to the flag. If a person drops it, everyone who is present must fast for 40 days, not just the guy/girl who dropped it.

Posted: Jul 16 2009 09:17 am

The most memorable flag mishap I can recall is this one in the 1992 World series.

I think you could say there were some pretty unhappy people knowing there was a Canadian team in the World Series.

Joined: Mar 13 2009 Location: Arlington Posts: 467

I remember being taught that at camp too. At the time it sounded right, christ anything they said seemed right. Later on I realized that camp counselors were full of shit.

The burning of the flag is a ceremonial way to dispose of flags that are no longer suitible to be flown....as opposed to throwing them out in the garbage. We give our old flags to the local VFW that has a ceremony each month.

Posted: Jul 16 2009 09:36 am

People ask me what America is. When a man hangs a flag over the window in a basement apartment because he's too cheap to buy curtains, that's America.

Posted: Jul 16 2009 06:25 pm

TopShelf wrote:

The most memorable flag mishap I can recall is this one in the 1992 World series.

I think you could say there were some pretty unhappy people knowing there was a Canadian team in the World Series.

Oh God, how stupid can you be? I can only pray that was an accident, and not intentional. Uncool to the extreme.

Posted: Jul 16 2009 08:32 pm

Thanks for being so Canadian-friendly in the midst of ranting about how pissed off you get when you see a tattered American flag. It's too often that Canadians are looked upon as lesser people because we aren't American. I actually ran into an old high school buddy of mine today who spent time in Afghanistan. 20 years old and he chose to go to war for his country. Made me think of you and Sideway and how different we really aren't.

Posted: Jul 16 2009 08:54 pm

Ross Rifle wrote:

Thanks for being so Canadian-friendly in the midst of ranting about how pissed off you get when you see a tattered American flag. It's too often that Canadians are looked upon as lesser people because we aren't American. I actually ran into an old high school buddy of mine today who spent time in Afghanistan. 20 years old and he chose to go to war for his country. Made me think of you and Sideway and how different we really aren't.

No, we're not. Human beings in general really aren't, if you ask me. Besides, how can I demand respect for my own flag if I don't show equal respect for the flags of others?

Besides, I love Canada, and have worked with plenty of Canadian soldiers, all of whom earned my deepest respect for their dedication and willingness to stand up for their country, and for human rights around the world. Anyone who doesn't support a Canadian (or Dutch, or Mexican, or whoever) soldier can't claim to support American troops, in my mind. A soldier is a solider--we may fight for different ideals, and under different flags, but the sacrifice is the same no matter where you are.

Posted: Jul 16 2009 09:00 pm

The cool thing about being deployed is you get to interact with other countries armed forces. I've worked with the Canadian Air Force in Iraq and I see them all the time on base here in Washington.

Posted: Jul 16 2009 09:01 pm

sidewaydriver wrote:

The cool thing about being deployed is you get to interact with other countries armed forces. I've worked with the Canadian Air Force in Iraq and I see them all the time on base here in Washington.

Absolutely one of the things I'm looking forward to the most.