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The Official MTG "Ask a judge" thread


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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 18 2009 10:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Now that it's come out that a lot of people on the forums play Magic, I figured a thread like this would be helpful. I get questions from a lot of forum goers and figure it would be useful if people can see the questions and answers for each other either to save them time, or remind them of other problems.

That said, ask away!


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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Mar 19 2009 10:28 am Reply with quote Back to top

I have Privileged Position in play and Pandemonium in play.

Privileged Position says other permanents I control can't be the target of spells or abilities controlled by opponents.

Pandemonium reads: "Whenever a creature comes into play, that creature's controller may have it deal damage equal to its power to target creature or player of his or her choice."

When a creature deals damage because of Pandemonium, who controls the effect? Me, or the opponent? If I control the effect, is there another permanent mass effect I could use that will give my creatures basic shroud?
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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Mar 19 2009 11:51 am Reply with quote Back to top

1. I have out Mark of Asylum
2. During my turn, I use an ability on one of my permanents that gives an opponent a creature token.
3. An effect I control deals damage to creatures as they come in to play.
4. Can I use Brand to gain control of the creature before the damage resolves?

Gatherer specifically says that I own the token and my opponent controls it.
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 19 2009 12:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
1. I have out Mark of Asylum
2. During my turn, I use an ability on one of my permanents that gives an opponent a creature token.
3. An effect I control deals damage to creatures as they come in to play.
4. Can I use Brand to gain control of the creature before the damage resolves?

Gatherer specifically says that I own the token and my opponent controls it.

Yes and no. You can use Brand to gain control of the token while the Aether Flash (You're not fooling anyone) trigger is still on the stack. You will gain control of it and the damage will be prevented. Just remember that the damage itself doesn't stack, only the CIP ability; only combat damage goes on the stack.

For future reference (for everyone), use card names, not generic effects. It makes the questions easier for everyone to understand (Myself included).


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nihilisticglee
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PostPosted: Mar 19 2009 12:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
When a creature deals damage because of Pandemonium, who controls the effect? Me, or the opponent?


whoever controls the creature is the one with control of the effect, as it is the creature that is dealing damage.

Of course, this is just working off my read of the effect, and I am not a judge. Still, I am almost 100% sure this is how it works.
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 19 2009 01:08 pm Reply with quote Back to top

nihilisticglee wrote:

whoever controls the creature is the one with control of the effect, as it is the creature that is dealing damage.

Of course, this is just working off my read of the effect, and I am not a judge. Still, I am almost 100% sure this is how it works.

Not to be rude, but the reason this is an "ask the judge" thread is so people can get official answers that are 100% corrent, not almost 100% correct. I'm not trying to sound like an elitist prick or anything, but I have to say this
1. To avoid clutter in the thread and
2. Because your answer is wrong

Syd Lexia wrote:
I have Privileged Position in play and Pandemonium in play.

Privileged Position says other permanents I control can't be the target of spells or abilities controlled by opponents.

Pandemonium reads: "Whenever a creature comes into play, that creature's controller may have it deal damage equal to its power to target creature or player of his or her choice."

When a creature deals damage because of Pandemonium, who controls the effect? Me, or the opponent? If I control the effect, is there another permanent mass effect I could use that will give my creatures basic shroud?

I didn't answer this right away because even though I thought I knew the answer, it's very counterintuitive so I had to be sure, but the ruling is actually in the gatherer entry for Pandemonium.

Whoever controls the permanent that has the triggered ability controls the triggered ability, even though they're not the one choosing the targets. That means Priviledged Position will NOT save your creatures from your own Pandemonium.

If you're confused, imagine you had a Soul Warden as well. Why would your opponent playing a creature make a Soul Warden trigger you control but a Pandemonium trigger they control? (They're both triggers with the exact same condition, the only difference is the effect and that one has a target)


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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Mar 19 2009 01:17 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Nah, makes sense. I kind of assumed it would work that way, but I wanted to make sure. Guess I'll need to find another answer.

#edit: Mark of Asylum from my other question would work. Duh.
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Knyte
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PostPosted: Mar 19 2009 07:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Okay, is this correct:

IF:

I am playing a True Believer with a Protective Bubble on it as well as a Cho-Manno, Revolutionary with a Pariah on it.

THEN:

I cannot take any damage until one of those two creatures are removed from play, correct? (At least from creatures, or any damage spells that say "target player")
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 20 2009 08:19 am Reply with quote Back to top

Knyte wrote:
Okay, is this correct:

IF:

I am playing a True Believer with a Protective Bubble on it as well as a Cho-Manno, Revolutionary with a Pariah on it.

THEN:

I cannot take any damage until one of those two creatures are removed from play, correct? (At least from creatures, or any damage spells that say "target player")

That is most likely the case, but not necessarily. Also, True Believer isn't necessary. He makes it so you can't be targetted, but the damage would all go to Cho-Manno anyway so it doesn't matter.

That being said, there are still 2 ways to hurt you: Anything that makes you lose life without targeting you will still make you lose life.
Any source of damage that says it can not be redirected will still hurt you. I know there's at least one spell with this ability (Lava Burst, but the no-redirect clause is only if it targets a creatre), but I can't recall off the top of my head if there are any creatures with that ability. I'm inclined to think there's at least one, so that creature (if anyone can tell me what it is) would still be able to hurt you.

For the most part, however, you're fine until someone plays Wrath.


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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Mar 20 2009 08:37 am Reply with quote Back to top

There's a popular extended deck that uses Swans of Bryn-Argoll and Chain of Plasma to draw through itself then flashbacks Conflagrate for the win. Why does this work?

In other words, why does the player get to draw cards off the Swan before the complete resolution of Chain of Plasma?
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 20 2009 08:51 am Reply with quote Back to top

First for reference, Swans reads:
"If a source would deal damage to Swans of Bryn Argoll, prevent that damage. The source's controller draws cards equal to the damage prevented this way."

Chain of Plasma Reads:
"Chain of Plasma deals 3 damage to target creature or player. Then that player or that creature's controller may discard a card. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy."

The Swans ability is a replacement effect, so it happens during Chain of Plasma's resolution when the 3 damage would be dealt. Normally replacement effects have the word "instead" in them which makes them easier to notice, but when the 3 damage would be dealt, you instead perform this action. This allows you to draw 3 cards and then discard one of them to copy Chain of Plasma and run through your whole deck.

FUN FACT: This would work even if this was a triggered ability. Let's say Swans read: "If a source would deal damage to Swans of Bryn Argoll, prevent that damage. Whenever damage is prevented in this way, draw 3 cards". This is functionally different, but just showing you how a triggered ability would work in this case. Anyway:
I play Chain of Plasma targetting the Swans. It deals its 3 damage, which is prevented. The Swans triggers, but we have to finish resolving Chain of Plasma first. I choose to discard a card to copy the Chain of Plasma. A copy of Chain of Plasma goes on the stack. The spell has now resolved, and I would get priority, so now before I get priority all effects that triggered are stacked, so the trigger to draw 3 cards would go on the stack on top of the copy of Chain of Plasma. I draw 3 cards and copy the spell. The end result is the same, I just needed to have an additional card in my hand when I cast the Chain of Plasma, which is not the case the way it actually works. Also, just as an FYI, the copy that goes on the stack can be countered or redirected like any other spell.


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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Mar 20 2009 09:04 am Reply with quote Back to top

But why does the first Chain of Plasma deal damage before you decide if you're going to copy it?My understanding would be it would work like this:

You cast Chain of Plasma. You declare target Swans as the target. Damage goes on the stack. You then declare whether or not you intend to copy it. You discard a card to copy it, and another copy immediately goes on the stack. You declare your target again, stack damage again, and discard a card to put another copy on the stack. You repeat this until you run out of cards in hand. Then, after all copies have been declared, the damage finally resolves, Swans' replacement effect takes hold, and you draw a bunch of cards.
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 20 2009 09:26 am Reply with quote Back to top

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but only combat damage goes on the stack.


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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Mar 20 2009 09:29 am Reply with quote Back to top

Well... damn. Learn a new thing every day.
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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Mar 27 2009 08:08 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I have out Pandemonium and Coat of Arms. I play a creature. Does the creature get the Coat of Arms bonus before Pandemonium triggers?

Alternatively, I have out Pandemonium and Coat of Arms. I play Empty The Warrens. Do the Goblins give each other the COA bonus before Pandemonium triggers?
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 28 2009 10:35 am Reply with quote Back to top

First one is easy: yes.

Second one is yes, but just remember that each copy of Empty the Warrens resolves seperately. So if there are no goblins in play and you have a storm count of 3, the first copy with give you 2 2/2 goblins, the next will give you 2 4/4 goblins, then 2 6/6's, then 2 8/8's.


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UsaSatsui
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PostPosted: Mar 28 2009 02:04 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I got one.

I Take Possession on a Fable of Wolf and Owl.

Who owns the tokens it creates? Myself, or the owner of the enchantment?
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 28 2009 03:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

You will now own the tokens. If an effect generates tokens, the controller of the effect is the owner of the tokens (Which is why if I play a Hunted Dragon to give you tokens I still own the tokens, because my effect created them).


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UsaSatsui
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PostPosted: Mar 28 2009 07:22 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I knew that. I was just wondering if the owner and controller being different changes who owns the tokens.

Okay, and this one is kind of a meta question...

If you feel a judge is wrong during an event, what recourse do you have? And if it turns out later on (after the fact) that you were right, do you have any recourse then too? Can you play a game "under protest"? (assume the judge's error significantly affected the game's outcome).
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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Mar 28 2009 07:33 pm Reply with quote Back to top

If it's a high level event, you can ask for a ruling from the head judge.

Otherwise, there's really nothing you can do. You can file a complaint with the DCI, or whatever subdivision of the DCI has authority over judges, but they'll probably ignore you. IIRC Jeebus tried to get a judge disbarred for failing to submit tournament reports, misruling, and falsifying tournament reports, but nothing ever came of it.
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UsaSatsui
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PostPosted: Mar 28 2009 08:25 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Otherwise, there's really nothing you can do. You can file a complaint with the DCI, or whatever subdivision of the DCI has authority over judges, but they'll probably ignore you.


Probably because in most of the "The judge was wrong" stories I have heard, the judge was right.

Still, particularly when there's something significant at stake, it'd be nice to know a bad call didn't screw your day over.
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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Mar 28 2009 09:09 pm Reply with quote Back to top

If something significant is at stake, like say a PTQ, a judge of a certain level has to be on hand, and that judge will most likely know how to make the right call. They should also have an internet connection readily available, which will give them access to Oracle and judge FAQs that will help them make proper rulings. A good judge will not hestitant to stop your match and research a tricky ruling for you, at which point you will be awarded extra play time due to the delay.
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 29 2009 12:16 pm Reply with quote Back to top

UsaSatsui wrote:
Yeah, I knew that. I was just wondering if the owner and controller being different changes who owns the tokens.

Okay, and this one is kind of a meta question...

If you feel a judge is wrong during an event, what recourse do you have? And if it turns out later on (after the fact) that you were right, do you have any recourse then too? Can you play a game "under protest"? (assume the judge's error significantly affected the game's outcome).

As stated, your only recourse during the event is to appeal to the head judge. Judges may make incorrect rulings that directly change who wins a match (happens now and then), but it doesn't matter. The first thing we learn as judges is that the judge is ALWAYS right. Even when we are wrong, we are right because we are the final authority on the rules. Being belligerent or playing a game "under protest" is a good way to get DQ'ed. (One of the examples of "unsporting conduct - severe" in the penalty guidelines is "failing to follow a direct instruction from the judge", which is penalized with disqualification without prize.

As for if it turns out after the fact that you were wrong, all you can do is present the judge with whatever proof you have. I have made incorrect rulings before and I have cost people prizes as a result, (only happened like 2 or 3 times so far, which isn't bad for judging 2-3 times a week for years). Anytime I've made a mistake and later found out I was wrong, however, I made sure to tell the person that I was incorrect with the ruling and apologize for the error.

The other thing you *might* be able to do is go to www.wizards.com/dci and go to the judge center. I'm not sure if you can get there without being a judge, but if so you can review judges there.


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UsaSatsui
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PostPosted: Mar 29 2009 04:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Here's a bit of an old one:

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=4741

Could you pay that cost to ignore the effect of the enchantment more than once?
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Mar 29 2009 06:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

No, you can only sacrifice one a turn. Once you sacrifice a creature, you are ignoring the entire ability, which includes the option to sacrifice.


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