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The Official MTG "Ask a judge" thread


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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Apr 29 2009 12:50 am Reply with quote Back to top

Black Lotus, 2 Moxes, Mountain, Swans of Bryn Argoll, Chains of Plasma.

Draw your entire deck. How you actually win with this is up to you.
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Apr 29 2009 08:31 am Reply with quote Back to top

There are pretty much innumerable ways to do win on turn 1. To take off on what Usa said, this is something that ACTUALLY HAPPENED at a Pro Tour event. This probably happened multiple times during the event, but it's the first time in an official tournament where anybody won on turn "0". Here's what went down:
I lose the die roll and my opponent chooses to go first.
Before the start of the game I remove a card in my hand from the game to put Gemstone Cavern into play with a luck counter on it.
During my opponent's upkeep, I tap the cavern for blue and discard an Elvish Spirit Guide to play Flash, get 4x Disciple of the Vault, 4x Phyrexian Marauders, and 4x Shifting Wall. Game over.

Of course, most decks couldn't do this because that requires a LOT of slots in your deck, so the preferred method of winning with Protean Hulk was to get a Karmic Guide and Carrion Feeder, bring Protean Hulk back with Karmic Guide, sac it to Carrion Feeder to get Kiki-Jiki, tap him to copy Karmic Guide and in response sac him to Carrion Feeder, Karmic Guide then comes into play and returns Kiki-Jiki to play. Rinse and repeat until you have infinity billion Karmic Guides and swing with all of them. Again that can't win during your opponent's upkeep though.

Oh, some more ways to win on turn 1:
Forest, tap for Fastbond. Play Mishra's Workshop, tap for Crucible of Worlds. Play Zuran Orb. Play mountain. Tap mountain, sac mountain for 2 life, and then take 1 damage to put the mountain back into play. You now have infinite mana and can play Kaervek's Torch for a ton.

Everyone seems to have forgotten about this, but this was the classic turn 1 win after Channel was banned (Much harder though):
Black Lotus. Sac for Ball Lightning. Mountain, Mox Emerald, Mox Ruby (Or pearl or jet or sapphire or lotus petal) play Blood Lust on Ball Lightning, then Berserk on Ball lightning. Swing for 20.

This one was possible type 2 a year or 2 ago, and I actually saw it happen:
Mountain, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Dragonstorm. Get 4x Bogardan Hellkite, deal 20 to your opponent. Some of the Rite of Flames can be mixed up with Desperate Rituals and Seething Songs, and you can get Kokusho's instead of Hellkites so that you kill all your opponents.

This one was possible in extended a year or 2 ago and I actually pulled it off. There are all sorts of variations of this, but basically:
Watery Grave, play Careful Study. Discard 2x Golgari Grave Troll. Chrome Mox imprinting anything Blue. Play Breakthrough for 0. Instead of drawing cards, dredge the 2 Grave Trolls and whatever dredge cards they reveal, hopefully 2 more Grave Trolls or some Stinkweed Imps. Of the 20-24 cards you dredge, if there were 2 or more Bridge from Belows, a Dread Return, a Flame-kin Zealot, and 3 or more Narcomeobas, sac the 3 Narcomeoba's to flashback Dread Return, targetting Flame-kin Zealot. When they go to the graveyard, you get 6 (or more) 2/2 zombies. When the Zealot comes into play, all your guys get +1/+1 and haste, so swing with 7 3/3 hasted creatures.

I could keep going, but I think you get the idea that there are a LOT of ways to win on turn 1. (Though, there are 0 ways to win on turn 1 without being considered a total douchebag)


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Knyte
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PostPosted: Apr 29 2009 02:27 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I know you can do it in legacy and such*. Any ways to do it, in the current legal block?

I thought of one shortly after posting the question:

(This would work in Alpha - Revised)

Starting hand:

2x Black Lotus
3x Black Vise
2x Ancestral Recall

Play a Lotus, put all three Black Vices into play.
Play 2nd Lotus, play both Ancestral Recalls on your opponent. Take 1 mana burn,
End Turn.

Opponent Takes 27 points of damage at the end of thier 1st upkeep. (13 cards in hand deal 9 damage per Black Vice.)
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Apr 29 2009 03:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

There hasn't been a way in Standard (type 2) to win on turn 1 since Dragonstorm left.

As for your example, Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall are both restricted, so you can't have 2 of either of them in a deck.

Another turn 1 win that's legal in Legacy and Vintage:
Play Badlands. Reveal hand to play Land Grant and fetch Taiga into your hand. Play Dark Ritual and discard Elvish Spirit Guide to play Goblin Charbelcher. Play Lion's Eye Diamond and sac it to activate Charbelcher. Reveal your entire library and they take 51-52 damage depending on who went first. (There are only 2 land in the deck and both are mountains, so even if you arne't able to get both out of your library you only have to reveal 10 cards to kill them)


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The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus

 
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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Apr 29 2009 04:12 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, there was a restricted list before the advent of Revised. Hence, all those cards that didn't return in Revised.
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UsaSatsui
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PostPosted: Apr 29 2009 04:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Yeah, there was a restricted list before the advent of Revised. Hence, all those cards that didn't return in Revised.


Channel?

Sol Ring?

Balance?

Also, power wasn't the only reason they dumped cards from Revised. Garfield always intended the core set to rotate around.
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Apr 29 2009 04:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Those cards were definitely dropped for power. They had no idea that they were so powerful until the first world tournament (I think? Maybe it was just the first major tournament) when someone showed up and basically every match went Turn 1:
Mox, Mox, Mox, Mox, Mox, Rack, Balance.


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UsaSatsui wrote:
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus

 
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UsaSatsui
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PostPosted: Apr 29 2009 05:17 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Dr. Jeebus wrote:
Those cards were definitely dropped for power. They had no idea that they were so powerful until the first world tournament (I think? Maybe it was just the first major tournament) when someone showed up and basically every match went Turn 1:
Mox, Mox, Mox, Mox, Mox, Rack, Balance.


Yes. Some cards were dropped for power.

But not all cards dropped from revised were, and not all the power cards were dropped.

Don't try and tell me Dwarven Demolition Team was tearing up the tournament circuit.
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Knyte
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PostPosted: Apr 29 2009 08:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Dr. Jeebus wrote:
As for your example, Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall are both restricted, so you can't have 2 of either of them in a deck.


They weren't restricted until January 26th, 1994.

That means that combo was legal for 5 months and 21 days. (Magic was offically released AUgust 5th, 1993)
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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Apr 30 2009 04:16 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I out a feather counter on Bant Sureblade with a Mimeomancer.

Bant Sureblade is now 4/2, flying, first strike?
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UsaSatsui
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PostPosted: Apr 30 2009 04:20 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
I out a feather counter on Bant Sureblade with a Mimeomancer.

Bant Sureblade is now 4/2, flying, first strike?


I'm not the judge here, but...why wouldn't it be?
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: May 01 2009 08:18 am Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
I out a feather counter on Bant Sureblade with a Mimeomancer.

Bant Sureblade is now 4/2, flying, first strike?

Yes it is.


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UsaSatsui wrote:
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UsaSatsui
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PostPosted: May 02 2009 06:57 am Reply with quote Back to top

Here's five, though the last one isn't so much a rules question as a "What would you do?" one. All happened today.

1) I have a Felwar Stone, an Island, and a Mountain. My opponent has an Exotic Orchard. Can my stone produce R/U?

2) In a multiplayer game, I take control of someone's token creature (or a Hunted critter gives me one). They then lose the game. Is the token removed from the game?

3) In a multiplayer game, I take control of another player's creature through a Ray of Command until the end of turn. I then lose the game. Does the creature return to it's controller? This one is the one I'm most unsure of...I know a Control Magic or some other continuous effect would give it back to them, and a Dominate or a permanent control effect would not, but I'm not sure about a temporary effect.

4) On player A's turn, player B begins to combo out. Player A concedes the game. His concession is deemed a dick move and ignored, but what would happen under the comp rules?

5) I play a Goblin Flectomancer. My opponent asks me what it does. I tell him. He looks at and reads the card. He nods. I say go. He untaps, does a bunch of stuff, and hits me with a Drain Life for 40.

What's the polite thing to do there? Note that my reaction of "Are you serious?" then laughing as I throw the Flectomancer on top of his Drain Life, and refused to let him take it back, was probably not, but he laughed too when I pointed it out, and it was kind of a ridiculous game as it was. Soldier of Fortune was involved.

Oh, Jeebus, I found that box. Thanks for keeping an eye out though.
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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: May 02 2009 07:09 am Reply with quote Back to top

2) I don't know if there are any official rules for multiplayer, but generally speaking, when a player is killed off, all permanents they own are immediately RFG'ed.
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: May 02 2009 03:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

1) Yes.

2) When a player dies in multiplayer, everything they control or own is removed from the game (Including spells on the stack)

3)They would not get it back. I'd have to check the official rules, but I don't know if they get it back from Control Magic either, it depends on if everything they control and own is removed at the same time, or if it's own first, then control. I'll check into that.

4) I assume this is multiplayer as well. Conceding is the fastest effect in magic and can happen at any time. I'd have to check the rules on this one, but I'm pretty sure if someone dies on their turn, there is still an end phase, or at least cleanup.

5) You make him drain life himself. It's not like he dies from it, it just doesn't do anything except for make him feel like an idiot. You told him what the card does, then he read it. The end.


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UsaSatsui wrote:
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UsaSatsui
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PostPosted: May 02 2009 05:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
5) You make him drain life himself. It's not like he dies from it, it just doesn't do anything except for make him feel like an idiot. You told him what the card does, then he read it. The end.


...Oh, right, it doesn't kill him...

Well, he wasn't paying attention to that too. Very Happy
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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: May 02 2009 06:25 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Dr. Jeebus wrote:

3)They would not get it back. I'd have to check the official rules, but I don't know if they get it back from Control Magic either, it depends on if everything they control and own is removed at the same time, or if it's own first, then control. I'll check into that.

We have ALWAYS played under the rules that a slain player's owned permanents get RFG'ed, and any permanents they control but do not own are buried (unless the cessation of the effect of an owned permanent returns that non-owned permanent to its owner), because that's what makes sense. So if I control a Savannah Lion that Jeebus Donated to me and a Mahamoti Djinn that belongs to Black Zarak that I Control Magicked, when I die this what happens:

Control Magic is RFG'ed. Black Zarak gets his Djinn back.
Savannah Lion is buried, triggering graveyard effects.

These are the rules I play by, and I don't really care if they're the official rules or not. If people don't like them, then I won't play multiplayer with them. Simple as that. Wizards doesn't sanction very many multiplayer events, and I don't enter them. It's fucking casual, so you can set your own rules as long as everyone agrees on them.
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Knyte
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PostPosted: May 02 2009 06:48 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
It's fucking casual, so you can set your own rules as long as everyone agrees on them.


Chaos Rolls for the win!

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=78166
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UsaSatsui
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PostPosted: May 02 2009 08:00 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Dr. Jeebus wrote:

3)They would not get it back. I'd have to check the official rules, but I don't know if they get it back from Control Magic either, it depends on if everything they control and own is removed at the same time, or if it's own first, then control. I'll check into that.

We have ALWAYS played under the rules that a slain player's owned permanents get RFG'ed, and any permanents they control but do not own are buried (unless the cessation of the effect of an owned permanent returns that non-owned permanent to its owner), because that's what makes sense. So if I control a Savannah Lion that Jeebus Donated to me and a Mahamoti Djinn that belongs to Black Zarak that I Control Magicked, when I die this what happens:

Control Magic is RFG'ed. Black Zarak gets his Djinn back.
Savannah Lion is buried, triggering graveyard effects.

These are the rules I play by, and I don't really care if they're the official rules or not. If people don't like them, then I won't play multiplayer with them. Simple as that. Wizards doesn't sanction very many multiplayer events, and I don't enter them. It's fucking casual, so you can set your own rules as long as everyone agrees on them.


That's the way we play it, except in that case the Lions aren't put into the Graveyard, they're RFG.
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: May 02 2009 10:14 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Dr. Jeebus wrote:

3)They would not get it back. I'd have to check the official rules, but I don't know if they get it back from Control Magic either, it depends on if everything they control and own is removed at the same time, or if it's own first, then control. I'll check into that.

We have ALWAYS played under the rules that a slain player's owned permanents get RFG'ed, and any permanents they control but do not own are buried (unless the cessation of the effect of an owned permanent returns that non-owned permanent to its owner), because that's what makes sense. So if I control a Savannah Lion that Jeebus Donated to me and a Mahamoti Djinn that belongs to Black Zarak that I Control Magicked, when I die this what happens:

Control Magic is RFG'ed. Black Zarak gets his Djinn back.
Savannah Lion is buried, triggering graveyard effects.

These are the rules I play by, and I don't really care if they're the official rules or not. If people don't like them, then I won't play multiplayer with them. Simple as that. Wizards doesn't sanction very many multiplayer events, and I don't enter them. It's fucking casual, so you can set your own rules as long as everyone agrees on them.

Chill the fuck out. He asked a question, so I was giving the answer under the official multiplayer rules. Also, we've been very inconsistent about whether stuff dies or is given back.


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UsaSatsui wrote:
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus

 
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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: May 22 2009 10:30 am Reply with quote Back to top

I have out Dream Halls and Paleoloth. If I pitch a creature power 5 or greater to cast a creature power 5 or greater, can I immediately return to the one I pitched to my hand?
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: May 22 2009 12:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

You sure can.


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UsaSatsui wrote:
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus

 
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Knyte
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PostPosted: Jul 01 2009 12:48 am Reply with quote Back to top

Okay:

I have out a Llanowar Elf, an Imperious Perfect, and play an Intruder Alarm. I can now make infinate elves. (Tap Llanowar to make G to tap Imp Perfect to create 1/1 Elf Warrior Token. When Token comes in play, Llanowar and Imperious untap, repeat)

My opponent has a Godsire out. Is the game offically a stalemate? Since I can make elves forever and he can make 8/8 creatures forever. How does this resolve?
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Dr. Jeebus
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PostPosted: Jul 01 2009 08:05 am Reply with quote Back to top

The game is not a stalemate. You each choose a number of times that you want to perform your infinite loop, but you MUST move on past that point. The game only becomes a stalemate if you get caught in an infinite loop that is occuring on its own, such as with a player casting 3 Worldgorger dragons. If you are in an infinite loop that is only being maintained by an optional player decision, the player must choose how many times to cycle through that loop and then progress the game forward.


dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com - Updated sometimes, but on hiatus!
UsaSatsui wrote:
The three greatest heels in history...Andy Kaufman, Triple H, and Dr. Jeebus

 
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Knyte
2010 SLF Tag Champ*
Title: Curator Of The VGM
Joined: Nov 01 2006
Location: Here I am.
PostPosted: Jul 01 2009 02:00 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Okay, so the person that knows the largest number wins?
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