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Anti-Weed has taken over for 2009


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scamrock
Title: Space Bastard
Joined: Jan 26 2008
Location: Planet Druidia
PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 02:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Rycona wrote:
I try to encourage people to not smoke near/around their kids. It's just not something they should have to deal with until they're older and more able to understand the reasons for which it's used.

I don't think people should ever be doing it around their kids. I don't even care if they are in their 40's and their kid is in their 20's. People are supposed to set an example for their kids. I can't tell you how many people I know who get high with their parents. For me, that is along the same lines as stealing with your kids. I can't tell you how many times my wife has come home and told me about catching shoplifters who had their kids with them. If someone wants to be an irresponsible parent, they should do that shit when the kids aren't around.


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Burt Reynolds
Title: Bentley Bear
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 03:16 pm Reply with quote Back to top

A couple things I'll add to this. One: When I was younger it was waaay harder to get a hold of alcohol or cigarettes than weed because they were regulated and you needed to find somebody of age to get it for you. Weed however, because it is illegal has no sort of regulation and because the fact you would get in trouble selling whether it be to an adult or minor meant it was easier to come by.

2. the DEA openly admitted the war on marijuana cannot be won, and no matter what they do, it will always be available. Well, if they can't stop it, make money off it. Make it a transparent business where it can be easily regulated. All making it illegal does is create a nasty underbelly of gangs that create an industry of violence. It's just like prohibition in the 30's, there is a demand so shady characters are going to provide the service. Eliminate them by making it a viable, taxable business. When was the last time you saw a convenient store owner on the news for murdering a rival store owner for selling cigarettes on their turf?

Lastly, and the reason I feel most strongly about: A person has a right to destroy their own body. I do not need anybody telling me what I can and cannot put in my body. Everyone knows McDonalds is bad for you. It's your choice whether or not to eat it, pot should be no different. Of course their should be rules on using it while driving just like alcohol, but that's because that can potentially harm another person. The term victimless crime sounds completely retarded, because it is.

EDIT: Oh and Syd, the CHP actually can arrest a person under the influence of marijuana based on appearance and reaction times pupil dialation etc, they have a masters of their trade kind of clause that allows them to incarcerate a driver they see as unfit to drive due to being under the influence of an unknown substance even if they blow below a .08.


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scamrock
Title: Space Bastard
Joined: Jan 26 2008
Location: Planet Druidia
PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 03:40 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Burt Reynolds wrote:
A couple things I'll add to this. One: When I was younger it was waaay harder to get a hold of alcohol or cigarettes than weed because they were regulated and you needed to find somebody of age to get it for you. Weed however, because it is illegal has no sort of regulation and because the fact you would get in trouble selling whether it be to an adult or minor meant it was easier to come by.

It was actually a lot easier to get booze for us. Almost everyone knew someone old enough who was more than willing to buy beer for minors. Also, if you wanted to drink, there were keggers every weekend. There may or may not be weed there, but there was always beer no matter what.

With weed, if you were younger, the easiest thing to do would be to either be friends with someone who would steal from their parent's secret stash or with someone who's parents actually shared with them.

As far as drug dealers going away, most of the people I know who only sell weed are high school/college kids. Everyone else pretty much sells meth too. So even if weed was legal, most of the dealers would still be out there.


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Burt Reynolds
Title: Bentley Bear
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 05:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

scamrock wrote:
Burt Reynolds wrote:
A couple things I'll add to this. One: When I was younger it was waaay harder to get a hold of alcohol or cigarettes than weed because they were regulated and you needed to find somebody of age to get it for you. Weed however, because it is illegal has no sort of regulation and because the fact you would get in trouble selling whether it be to an adult or minor meant it was easier to come by.

It was actually a lot easier to get booze for us. Almost everyone knew someone old enough who was more than willing to buy beer for minors. Also, if you wanted to drink, there were keggers every weekend. There may or may not be weed there, but there was always beer no matter what.

With weed, if you were younger, the easiest thing to do would be to either be friends with someone who would steal from their parent's secret stash or with someone who's parents actually shared with them.

As far as drug dealers going away, most of the people I know who only sell weed are high school/college kids. Everyone else pretty much sells meth too. So even if weed was legal, most of the dealers would still be out there.

Where do they get it from? these guys are selling 20 sacks not pounds. It's a whole different game when you potentially lose 1000's+. Also, your touching on a topic I will not get into about the legalization of other narcotics. The whole idea of outlawing drugs is relatively new, and abuse was never an issue until it was made an issue. People have this desire to do the forbidden. I'm not saying that we should go back to putting morphine in children's cough syrup, but I think if we didn't make it so taboo, nobody would give a shit about half the stuff out there. I could do herione, and I know I wouldn't get in trouble for it, but I choose not to because I'm educated on it's effects.


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scamrock
Title: Space Bastard
Joined: Jan 26 2008
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 06:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Burt Reynolds wrote:
...abuse was never an issue until it was made an issue.

Abuse has been an issue as long as there has been drug use. Whether it was a national problem war on drugs kind of issue or not, there have always been people who have had to watch their loved ones throw their lives down the shitter.

I also don't buy that "my body my choice" crap. Like I said before, if it doesn't affect the lives of anyone else, fine. But if you are making life difficult for at least one other person, it's not an acceptable defense. I mean, if you have a kid who is in his late teens/early twenties who is smoking weed, are you just gonna say, "Oh well. His choice." and forget about it? Not me.


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DarknessDeku
Title: Deku Scrub
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 06:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

scamrock wrote:
Burt Reynolds wrote:
...abuse was never an issue until it was made an issue.

Abuse has been an issue as long as there has been drug use. Whether it was a national problem war on drugs kind of issue or not, there have always been people who have had to watch their loved ones throw their lives down the shitter.

I also don't buy that "my body my choice" crap. Like I said before, if it doesn't affect the lives of anyone else, fine. But if you are making life difficult for at least one other person, it's not an acceptable defense. I mean, if you have a kid who is in his late teens/early twenties who is smoking weed, are you just gonna say, "Oh well. His choice." and forget about it? Not me.


If he is a late teen/young adult, he is no kid.


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scamrock
Title: Space Bastard
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 06:47 pm Reply with quote Back to top

DarknessDeku wrote:
scamrock wrote:
Burt Reynolds wrote:
...abuse was never an issue until it was made an issue.

Abuse has been an issue as long as there has been drug use. Whether it was a national problem war on drugs kind of issue or not, there have always been people who have had to watch their loved ones throw their lives down the shitter.

I also don't buy that "my body my choice" crap. Like I said before, if it doesn't affect the lives of anyone else, fine. But if you are making life difficult for at least one other person, it's not an acceptable defense. I mean, if you have a kid who is in his late teens/early twenties who is smoking weed, are you just gonna say, "Oh well. His choice." and forget about it? Not me.


If he is a late teen/young adult, he is no kid.

He isn't a kid, but he is still your kid. Are you telling me if your son is smoking weed you are cool with it?


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DarknessDeku
Title: Deku Scrub
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 06:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

scamrock wrote:
DarknessDeku wrote:
scamrock wrote:
Burt Reynolds wrote:
...abuse was never an issue until it was made an issue.

Abuse has been an issue as long as there has been drug use. Whether it was a national problem war on drugs kind of issue or not, there have always been people who have had to watch their loved ones throw their lives down the shitter.

I also don't buy that "my body my choice" crap. Like I said before, if it doesn't affect the lives of anyone else, fine. But if you are making life difficult for at least one other person, it's not an acceptable defense. I mean, if you have a kid who is in his late teens/early twenties who is smoking weed, are you just gonna say, "Oh well. His choice." and forget about it? Not me.


If he is a late teen/young adult, he is no kid.

He isn't a kid, but he is still your kid. Are you telling me if your son is smoking weed you are cool with it?


If he was responsible about it, then yes I would be cool with it.


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Rycona
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 06:51 pm Reply with quote Back to top

anorexorcist wrote:
Rycona, define kids. Some people consider it's under in there teens, under 18 and some consider kids to be under 12

I'd say 18 and out of high school are adults. Less = kids.


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Burt Reynolds
Title: Bentley Bear
Joined: Apr 07 2008
Location: California
PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 06:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

scamrock wrote:
Burt Reynolds wrote:
...abuse was never an issue until it was made an issue.

Abuse has been an issue as long as there has been drug use. Whether it was a national problem war on drugs kind of issue or not, there have always been people who have had to watch their loved ones throw their lives down the shitter.

I also don't buy that "my body my choice" crap. Like I said before, if it doesn't affect the lives of anyone else, fine. But if you are making life difficult for at least one other person, it's not an acceptable defense. I mean, if you have a kid who is in his late teens/early twenties who is smoking weed, are you just gonna say, "Oh well. His choice." and forget about it? Not me.
That's silly. People do all sorts of things that make life hell to their loved ones. You can't just put a ban on anything that will put distress on your loved ones. And of course your going to teach your child the negatives of any drug, but you can't shelter them forever, at one point in their life, they are going to make the choice for themselves, legal or not, or with your approval or not. There is nothing you can do about it. At least if it's legal, you don't have to worry about your kid getting weed laced with PCP or Cocaine or whatever. I don't smoke pot, but I tried it, and I can tell you my decision was not in the least detoured by the fact that it was illegal or my parents didn't approve.

One last point: You don't want your kid to smoke cigarettes do you? By your logic it would be ok for them to smoke because it's legal. No, cigarettes are bad for you. Everyone knows this. My parent's taught me the dangers of smoking, and I chose not to smoke. Cigarettes will hurt your family pretty bad when you die of lung cancer. Everyone knows smoking is bad, but you still have the choice on whether or not you want to harm your body.


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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 07:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Burt Reynolds wrote:
A couple things I'll add to this. One: When I was younger it was waaay harder to get a hold of alcohol or cigarettes than weed because they were regulated and you needed to find somebody of age to get it for you.

Cigarettes are easy as hell to get when you're in high school and at lesser extent, junior high. Everybody knows a senior or has a friend with an older sister who will buy, or they know that one gas station where the people never card. When the drinking age was 18, alcohol was easy as hell to get as well. During the Vietnam era, the drinking age was lowered to 18 because it was argued that if they were old enough to die, they were old enough to drink. After Vietname, it quickly became apparent that 18 year olds had no qualms about buying alcohol for underclassmen, so the drinking age was raised again.

Burt Reynolds wrote:
2. the DEA openly admitted the war on marijuana cannot be won, and no matter what they do,

Some guy with a high position in the DEA said that. It is not necessarily the official position of the DEA, the majority opinion within the DEA, or even a popular opinion within the DEA. Even if it was, it's irrelevant. That's like saying, "Well, we can't ever completely stop murders from happening, so we might as we decriminalize murder." It simply does not follow. You'll never win the war on shoplifting, the war on cocaine, the war on poverty, the war on speeding, or the war on rape; that doesn't mean you should give up.
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scamrock
Title: Space Bastard
Joined: Jan 26 2008
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 07:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Burt Reynolds wrote:
One last point: You don't want your kid to smoke cigarettes do you? By your logic it would be ok for them to smoke because it's legal.

That's not my logic. I don't want my kids smoking either. This falls under the "there are worse things that are legal" argument. Personally, I don't see the logic in that argument.

Look, I'm not naive enough to believe my kid will never do any of this shit. If he is an average teenager, most likely he will sneak out of the house, go to underage drinking parties, get shitfaced, use drugs in some form or another, shoplift, and have multiple sex partners all while living under my roof. But it doesn't mean there won't be consequences if he is caught.

You said you were taught about dangers of certain things at home. I was too. I listened. But even if I didn't learn that lesson at home, I guarantee I learned it first hand in the real world. Some of the shit I've seen is just crazy to me. Some of the things I have experienced are awful. I don't want my kid going through that same shit. I know ultimately, it is all on him, but I will take preventative measures, teach him, talk to him, and do whatever I can to dissuade him from doing it or being around it. You said before about drugs being taboo. If they weren't, more people would think it is okay to use them because frankly, not everyone has parents who are willing to teach them about bad shit. In fact, I know plenty of people who's parents are enablers. I know by being "forbidden" it will entice some people into doing it. But I think it probably deters more people than not.

You said that being illegal won't keep people from doing it. It didn't keep me from it, but it did keep me from really getting into it, and all the while, getting caught was always in the back of my mind. Needless to say, I didn't do it very much.

The single most important reason I am against it is that I have seen too many people I care about fuck up their lives and I feel that if I supported it, I would be in support of even more people fucking up. I can't do that. You can disagree with me all you want, but you really can't argue with my reasoning. As far as it being none of my business what they do with their body, fuck that. I can tell you from personal experience that when I was in a bad way, no matter what I thought at the time, I'm glad I had people around me who cared enough to do something about it or I probably wouldn't even be here.


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Burt Reynolds
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 07:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Burt Reynolds wrote:
A couple things I'll add to this. One: When I was younger it was waaay harder to get a hold of alcohol or cigarettes than weed because they were regulated and you needed to find somebody of age to get it for you.

Cigarettes are easy as hell to get when you're in high school and at lesser extent, junior high. Everybody knows a senior or has a friend with an older sister who will buy, or they know that one gas station where the people never card. When the drinking age was 18, alcohol was easy as hell to get as well. During the Vietnam era, the drinking age was lowered to 18 because it was argued that if they were old enough to die, they were old enough to drink. After Vietname, it quickly became apparent that 18 year olds had no qualms about buying alcohol for underclassmen, so the drinking age was raised again.

Burt Reynolds wrote:
2. the DEA openly admitted the war on marijuana cannot be won, and no matter what they do,

Some guy with a high position in the DEA said that. It is not necessarily the official position of the DEA, the majority opinion within the DEA, or even a popular opinion within the DEA. Even if it was, it's irrelevant. That's like saying, "Well, we can't ever completely stop murders from happening, so we might as we decriminalize murder." It simply does not follow. You'll never win the war on shoplifting, the war on cocaine, the war on poverty, the war on speeding, or the war on rape; that doesn't mean you should give up.

Murder is taking the life of another human being. Marijuana is a plant that gets you high. Of course you would never give up on trying to catch murderers, but my point is: how much is the war on drugs, or specifically marijuana helping? If murder cases were going unsolved by the majority, or there were rapid increases in murder rates, then, I would say they shouldn't give up, but they might want to figure out a new game plan if the old one isn't working. Arguing these odds and ends is difficult for me because my logic is that drug abuse is not a crime, and is a health issue and not a criminal issue, but others obviously think differently, and those are hard opinions to sway.


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scamrock
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 07:42 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
You'll never win the war on shoplifting, the war on cocaine, the war on poverty, the war on speeding, or the war on rape; that doesn't mean you should give up.

This. And I don't believe that because it could be helpful to the economy to legalize it is a good enough reason. More people will pick up the habit, and even if some are responsible, a lot of those people will still fuck up their lives and to me, that's not acceptable just to balance the budget.


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Burt Reynolds
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 07:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

scamrock wrote:


The single most important reason I am against it is that I have seen too many people I care about fuck up their lives and I feel that if I supported it, I would be in support of even more people fucking up. I can't do that. You can disagree with me all you want, but you really can't argue with my reasoning. As far as it being none of my business what they do with their body, fuck that. I can tell you from personal experience that when I was in a bad way, no matter what I thought at the time, I'm glad I had people around me who cared enough to do something about it or I probably wouldn't even be here.

We are on the same page, but we just have a different approach. I personally think that it is the peoples job who love said abuser to get them help or tell them it's the worng path, not the governments. That's all. We both agree that drugs can potentially ruin lives, but like I said, the government doesn't need to tell me this. I mean if my son decided to become an Alaskan Crab fisher, I would be upset as it's one of the most dangerous jobs out there, and a lot of people die doing it, but It's my job to let him know my concern. I don't think the government should make a law banning Alaskan Crab fishing.


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DarknessDeku
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 07:47 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I say let all drugs be legalize. Who the fuck is anybody to tell everybody else what they should and shouldn't do? It's pretty sad when you compare drugs to rape and murder.


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scamrock
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 07:52 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Burt Reynolds wrote:
Arguing these odds and ends is difficult for me because my logic is that drug abuse is not a crime, and is a health issue and not a criminal issue, but others obviously think differently, and those are hard opinions to sway.

I actually agree with that point of view quite a bit. But that is in regards of abuse. Manufacturing and selling is completely different. Meth is no good. It never will, and should never be made legal. Maybe people using it need treatment rather than being put in the slammer. But there are plenty of people peddling that shit to kids (teenagers Deku, not elementary). That's not a medical issue. That's criminal.


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scamrock
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 07:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Burt Reynolds wrote:
scamrock wrote:


The single most important reason I am against it is that I have seen too many people I care about fuck up their lives and I feel that if I supported it, I would be in support of even more people fucking up. I can't do that. You can disagree with me all you want, but you really can't argue with my reasoning. As far as it being none of my business what they do with their body, fuck that. I can tell you from personal experience that when I was in a bad way, no matter what I thought at the time, I'm glad I had people around me who cared enough to do something about it or I probably wouldn't even be here.

We are on the same page, but we just have a different approach. I personally think that it is the peoples job who love said abuser to get them help or tell them it's the worng path, not the governments. That's all. We both agree that drugs can potentially ruin lives, but like I said, the government doesn't need to tell me this. I mean if my son decided to become an Alaskan Crab fisher, I would be upset as it's one of the most dangerous jobs out there, and a lot of people die doing it, but It's my job to let him know my concern. I don't think the government should make a law banning Alaskan Crab fishing.

You are completely right. Just different approach. My only real problem is that not everyone has the support of their loved ones. My biggest, biggest, biggest problem in the whole damn topic of drugs is the parents who, rather than teaching their kids about drugs, share/give their kids drugs.


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scamrock
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 08:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

DarknessDeku wrote:
I say let all drugs be legalize. Who the fuck is anybody to tell everybody else what they should and shouldn't do? It's pretty sad when you compare drugs to rape and murder.
If it's my son, I have every right to tell him what they should or shouldn't do. That is my responsibility as a parent. I also think it is my parents' responsibility to tell me what I should and shouldn't do. I'm an adult. I'll do whatever I want. But respect their opinions and no matter how old I am, I'm still their son and to an extent, it's still their responsibility to look out for me.

Maybe it's none of my business what some random guy is doing. But everyone is someone's son or daughter and hopefully (but unfortunately not always), that means that everyone has someone looking out for them. If they do, that is their responsibility to tell them what the should or shouldn't do.


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DarknessDeku
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 08:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

scamrock wrote:
DarknessDeku wrote:
I say let all drugs be legalize. Who the fuck is anybody to tell everybody else what they should and shouldn't do? It's pretty sad when you compare drugs to rape and murder.
If it's my son, I have every right to tell him what they should or shouldn't do. That is my responsibility as a parent. I also think it is my parents' responsibility to tell me what I should and shouldn't do. I'm an adult. I'll do whatever I want. But respect their opinions and no matter how old I am, I'm still their son and to an extent, it's still their responsibility to look out for me.

Maybe it's none of my business what some random guy is doing. But everyone is someone's son or daughter and hopefully (but unfortunately not always), that means that everyone has someone looking out for them. If they do, that is their responsibility to tell them what the should or shouldn't do.


It's not your responsibility to control them when they are adults. They can take care of themselves however they want.


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scamrock
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 08:25 pm Reply with quote Back to top

DarknessDeku wrote:
scamrock wrote:
DarknessDeku wrote:
I say let all drugs be legalize. Who the fuck is anybody to tell everybody else what they should and shouldn't do? It's pretty sad when you compare drugs to rape and murder.
If it's my son, I have every right to tell him what they should or shouldn't do. That is my responsibility as a parent. I also think it is my parents' responsibility to tell me what I should and shouldn't do. I'm an adult. I'll do whatever I want. But respect their opinions and no matter how old I am, I'm still their son and to an extent, it's still their responsibility to look out for me.

Maybe it's none of my business what some random guy is doing. But everyone is someone's son or daughter and hopefully (but unfortunately not always), that means that everyone has someone looking out for them. If they do, that is their responsibility to tell them what the should or shouldn't do.


It's not your responsibility to control them when they are adults. They can take care of themselves however they want.

For most people, when you are a parent, you never stop worrying about your kids. I ask my parents for their advice all of the time and they have helped me out several times and I'm almost 29. I was addicted to pain killers when I was 22 and if not for my parents and my friends interjecting themselves in my life, I would probably be dead. So I for one can appreciate the fact that they still care.

What would you do if your son was an adult and throwing his life away? Sure you can't make him do anything. He is going to do what he wants in the end and for you to help him, he has to help himself. But aren't you going to do whatever you can to try and help him, or do you just say "Fuck it. Not my problem anymore."


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TheRoboSleuth
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 10:47 pm Reply with quote Back to top

We should probably stop the arguing at this point, its going to go around in circles. We should stop and ask questions, the right ones:

What are the dangers posed by weed? Are the dangers, medical, psychological, social, etcetera.

Once we have determined the degree and the specifics of harm caused, what are the most effective means of addressing them? That is to say, criminalization, regulation by the government, or should it be addressed by family and community? By effectiveness, we look at both the moral need and the practical enforcement.

Don't be so quick to rule out criminalization. Prohibition failed in America, but the muslim world continues to work alchohol free, relatively speaking. You have to be willing to consider all possibilities and consequences. "I love my kids and I wouldn't let them smoke weed" and "let people do whatever cause" are not good substitutes for reasoning. Neither is drawing parallels. Weed is not crack and it is not a hamburger.


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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 10:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Some more good questions:

What medical benefits does weed offer? Does it offer any significant benefits that can't be provided as efficiently - if not better - by more formal prescription drugs?
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scamrock
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 11:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Syd Lexia wrote:
Some more good questions:

What medical benefits does weed offer? Does it offer any significant benefits that can't be provided as efficiently - if not better - by more formal prescription drugs?

In case this comment sparks an argument about natural cures, I'm going to go ahead and say fuck Kevin Trudeau. If you don't know who that is, you are probably better off. If you do know who he is, fuck him.


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Syd Lexia
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PostPosted: Feb 17 2009 11:20 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Being natural doesn't make a cure better, and the attitude that only natural cures are acceptable borders on quackery. Bloodletting is natural. Snakehandling is natural. But they're not good medecine.

Hell, why not go 100% natural and refuse all medecine and wait for nature to cure you.
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