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Mass Effect 3


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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
PostPosted: Feb 23 2012 05:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

^ It's not surprise. It is disgust. If it's available as DLC day 1 they should just pack it with the game. End of.
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justdrop
Title: Supreme Overlord
Joined: Jan 11 2012
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Feb 23 2012 05:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

People are surprised? I figured after Call of Duty: World at War my hope for people buying re-skins, different settings and different weapons for 60 bucks might change the amount of profit the company made. After that my disdain for humanity, much like the Grinch's heart, grew three sizes.

If I'm surprised by anything, it'd be that an entirely different group of people are falling victim to marketing schemes and loving every second of it while acknowledging that CoD fans are fools in some of the posts I've read.


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Andrew Man
Title: Is a Funklord
Joined: Jan 30 2007
Location: Annandale, VA
PostPosted: Feb 24 2012 12:18 am Reply with quote Back to top

Well, I caved and pre-ordered the Collector's Edition of this the other night because I found a pretty good deal.

Cannot fucking wait.


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Pandajuice
Title: The Power of Grayskull
Joined: Oct 30 2008
Location: US and UK
PostPosted: Feb 24 2012 11:42 am Reply with quote Back to top

Care to share the deal Andrew? Smile

On topic, I don't really care if they want to offer DLC on release of the game as long as it actually is "extra" and the release version of the game is complete without the DLC.
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LordHuffnPuff
Title: Mahna Mahna
Joined: Jan 12 2009
Location: Fairyland
PostPosted: Feb 24 2012 07:28 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Alowishus wrote:
^ It's not surprise. It is disgust. If it's available as DLC day 1 they should just pack it with the game. End of.


This comment betrays a lack of knowledge about how the game production process actually works. Here's a helpful image that should clear it up.

http://i.imgur.com/m77S3.png

If you get 403'd, either copy-paste it into the URL bar manually or go here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/q3rvv/mass_effect_day_1_premium_dlc_controversy_and_how/


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justdrop
Title: Supreme Overlord
Joined: Jan 11 2012
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Feb 24 2012 07:52 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Did you read point 2? Tremendous story will be missing if you don't get the character. In a series of games that are based on storyline, who wants an incomplete fucking story?


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LordHuffnPuff
Title: Mahna Mahna
Joined: Jan 12 2009
Location: Fairyland
PostPosted: Feb 24 2012 08:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

justdrop wrote:
Did you read point 2? Tremendous story will be missing if you don't get the character. In a series of games that are based on storyline, who wants an incomplete fucking story?


Point 2 does not say that "tremendous story will be missing". Point 2's argument is drawn directly from the Bioware Social forum, and states what has always been the case: there is extra story potential, but it is in no way integral to the game's narrative. If you've played any of Bioware's other games with DLC characters (Shale in DA: Origins, Zaeed and Kasumi in ME2, Sebastian in DA2) you know perfectly well that the DLC character(s) are self-contained pieces of content, and have basically zero impact outside of their own story missions that are included in their own DLC. This is borne out in ME3 by the leaked script, which details exactly how the DLC squadmate is involved. Guess what? It's a small raindrop in a massive bucket that does not tremendously impact the story either way. It's simply an optional mission.

Furthermore, the graph makes it clear that the majority of production work on the DLC is accomplished after the game finishes certification -- and after a game finishes certification, you can't add new content to it. Why? Ask the lawyers. This is perhaps a 2-3 month period between certification and release. It is during this window that the DLC is developed. They both release at the same time, but the stuff couldn't have been included outside of DLC even if they wanted it to be.


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justdrop
Title: Supreme Overlord
Joined: Jan 11 2012
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Feb 24 2012 09:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Considering the race of the character that is optional has people raising eyebrows as to why that character would join, it kind of is integral to the story.

Justifying their actions by saying they have a different means of development from other companies is not justification for the extra cost. It's just giving them an excuse to charge more money.

Additionally, they are not the only company that pulls stunts like this, but it should not become the norm for companies to do it simply because "they couldn't get it in time."


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LordHuffnPuff
Title: Mahna Mahna
Joined: Jan 12 2009
Location: Fairyland
PostPosted: Feb 24 2012 11:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

justdrop wrote:
Considering the race of the character that is optional has people raising eyebrows as to why that character would join, it kind of is integral to the story.

Justifying their actions by saying they have a different means of development from other companies ....
...they are not the only company that pulls stunts like this...


If you don't care about spoilers, look at the character's plot involvement in the leaked storyscript. Then make a judgment.

Seems a bit contradictory there at the end...


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justdrop
Title: Supreme Overlord
Joined: Jan 11 2012
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Feb 24 2012 11:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

LordHuffnPuff wrote:
justdrop wrote:
Considering the race of the character that is optional has people raising eyebrows as to why that character would join, it kind of is integral to the story.

Justifying their actions by saying they have a different means of development from other companies ....
...they are not the only company that pulls stunts like this...


If you don't care about spoilers, look at the character's plot involvement in the leaked storyscript. Then make a judgment.

Seems a bit contradictory there at the end...

It's contradictory that while they're not alone, it's still bullshit practice? I say the same stuff about Activision and if any other company did it I'd say it about them too.


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LordHuffnPuff
Title: Mahna Mahna
Joined: Jan 12 2009
Location: Fairyland
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 12:23 am Reply with quote Back to top

justdrop wrote:
LordHuffnPuff wrote:
justdrop wrote:
Considering the race of the character that is optional has people raising eyebrows as to why that character would join, it kind of is integral to the story.

Justifying their actions by saying they have a different means of development from other companies ....
...they are not the only company that pulls stunts like this...


If you don't care about spoilers, look at the character's plot involvement in the leaked storyscript. Then make a judgment.

Seems a bit contradictory there at the end...

It's contradictory that while they're not alone, it's still bullshit practice? I say the same stuff about Activision and if any other company did it I'd say it about them too.


No, it's contradictory to say that they have a different means of development and then saying that they're not the only ones who do it. You can't have it both ways. Furthermore, they never claimed they were different.

The practice is perfectly legitimate and allows them to get the best use out of their employees. Game making is not a hobby, it is their business. I don't understand what is so objectionable about this. Due to the certification process, which every major studio goes through, they literally could not have included the content in the main game even if they had wanted to.

Furthermore, you as the consumer are not entitled to the content even if we were living in some fantasy world where this had been purposely cut out of the game in order to sell seperately. They tell you what is in the package before you buy it. If you don't want what they are selling, vote with your dollars and don't purchase it. This is how capitalism works. People may accuse EA of being greedy, but it's rather greedy on the part of the consumer to expect to get this sort of thing for free.


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justdrop
Title: Supreme Overlord
Joined: Jan 11 2012
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 12:25 am Reply with quote Back to top

LordHuffnPuff wrote:
justdrop wrote:
LordHuffnPuff wrote:
justdrop wrote:
Considering the race of the character that is optional has people raising eyebrows as to why that character would join, it kind of is integral to the story.

Justifying their actions by saying they have a different means of development from other companies ....
...they are not the only company that pulls stunts like this...


If you don't care about spoilers, look at the character's plot involvement in the leaked storyscript. Then make a judgment.

Seems a bit contradictory there at the end...

It's contradictory that while they're not alone, it's still bullshit practice? I say the same stuff about Activision and if any other company did it I'd say it about them too.


No, it's contradictory to say that they have a different means of development and then saying that they're not the only ones who do it. You can't have it both ways. Furthermore, they never claimed they were different.

So you're trying to tell me that this is the only way games are developed? I'm pretty sure that if you go back two platform generations you'd find none of these problems, seeing as online support was nearly non-existent. But you believe what you want.


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LordHuffnPuff
Title: Mahna Mahna
Joined: Jan 12 2009
Location: Fairyland
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 12:30 am Reply with quote Back to top

I edited some stuff into the above post so please read that before reading this.

Your analogy is irrelevant. Games didn't have DLC because the infrastructure for delivery was not there. Instead, at least on the PC, if a game were updated at all you would purchase a $30+ "expansion pack". As for the console? Good luck getting even a bugfix deployed. These days, you download it in smaller bites. If anything, this is an improvement, as it allows the consumer to cherry-pick the content that most suits him or her, instead of having to buy it all and perhaps only get use out of some of it. Furthermore, most games did not have these expansions at all. I certainly am much happier that now, with the advent of DLC, I can continue getting new experiences in a game I enjoy for a longer period of time as it is easier for a developer to continue supporting the product. It also allows them to iterate more quickly, as they don't need to spend time developing a new engine and/or printing physical disks for the new content that would be involved with the older model.


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justdrop
Title: Supreme Overlord
Joined: Jan 11 2012
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 12:44 am Reply with quote Back to top

LordHuffnPuff wrote:
The practice is perfectly legitimate and allows them to get the best use out of their employees. Game making is not a hobby, it is their business. I don't understand what is so objectionable about this.

Perhaps the fact that it's the purpose of every business to put out a product that people like. Otherwise what's the point of even having a QA department?

LordHuffnPuff wrote:
Due to the certification process, which every major studio goes through, they literally could not have included the content in the main game even if they had wanted to. .

Again, using their method. Other companies seem to not be called out on it, wonder why that is? Oh, because there's no first day DLC from them.

LordHuffnPuff wrote:
Furthermore, you as the consumer are not entitled to the content even if we were living in some fantasy world where this had been purposely cut out of the game in order to sell seperately. They tell you what is in the package before you buy it. If you don't want what they are selling, vote with your dollars and don't purchase it. This is how capitalism works. People may accuse EA of being greedy, but it's rather greedy on the part of the consumer to expect to get this sort of thing for free.

I have no plan on buying it, I'm merely trying to convince people not to simply because if you allow companies to get away with this, it will become the staple. A $60 game becomes $100+ with "additional content" that most certainly could've been included had they pushed release dates back a month or so. The only way the consumer is at fault is their demand for date of release. Edit: And if they allow them to get away with it, they're also at fault.

LordHuffnPuff wrote:
I edited some stuff into the above post so please read that before reading this.

Your analogy is irrelevant. Games didn't have DLC because the infrastructure for delivery was not there. Instead, at least on the PC, if a game were updated at all you would purchase a $30+ "expansion pack". As for the console? Good luck getting even a bugfix deployed. These days, you download it in smaller bites. If anything, this is an improvement, as it allows the consumer to cherry-pick the content that most suits him or her, instead of having to buy it all and perhaps only get use out of some of it. Furthermore, most games did not have these expansions at all. I certainly am much happier that now, with the advent of DLC, I can continue getting new experiences in a game I enjoy for a longer period of time as it is easier for a developer to continue supporting the product. It also allows them to iterate more quickly, as they don't need to spend time developing a new engine and/or printing physical disks for the new content that would be involved with the older model.

It's not irrelevant whatsoever; it's outdated, sure. Yes, there are benefits to online. This is not one of them.


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LordHuffnPuff
Title: Mahna Mahna
Joined: Jan 12 2009
Location: Fairyland
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 12:57 am Reply with quote Back to top

justdrop wrote:
Perhaps the fact that it's the purpose of every business to put out a product that people like. Otherwise what's the point of even having a QA department?


In that case I think the sales numbers speak for themselves, as Bioware's games sell very well.

justdrop wrote:
Other companies seem to not be called out on it, wonder why that is? Oh, because there's no first day DLC from them.


This is patently untrue. Bioshock 2 had DLC /on the disk/, and that was 2K Games. Fable III had Day 1 DLC, and that's from Lionhead. Soul Calibur V had Day 1 DLC as well, from Namco. It has become a common and widespread practice. The fact that somebody here decided to post about the controversy surrounding Mass Effect 3 doing it does not mean that this is a unique or even uncommon incident. It is becoming, if it is not already, the rule, not the exception.

justdrop wrote:
$60 game becomes $100+ with "additional content" that most certainly could've been included had they pushed release dates back a month or so. The only way the consumer is at fault is their demand for date of release.


This falls into the slipperly slope fallacy. As long as they continue plans to develop DLC, they can always theoretically push release back further to include it in the main game. Where do we stop? They need to decide to cut it off at some point. Furthermore, DLC is optional. Your assumption that every player needs to buy all the content ignores this -- the game is perfectly enjoyable without it.

justdrop wrote:
It's not irrelevant whatsoever; it's outdated, sure. Yes, there are benefits to online. This is not one of them.


So you'd rather buy the expansion pack, which may contain things you don't want, and will certainly be more expensive due to the physical nature of the product, than perhaps one or two DLC packs whose sum cost is perhaps only half of the expansion?


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justdrop
Title: Supreme Overlord
Joined: Jan 11 2012
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 01:02 am Reply with quote Back to top

First point: That's fine. CoD is a good game too in some people's eyes.

Second point: They're not the first, they're not alone. They are the first to have such an in-depth and on-going story compromised because of it, thus making it a big deal. It is unique in that aspect.

Third point: It's not a fallacy, as evidenced by your own second point. Companies have done it and gotten away with it, simply because no one said enough is enough.

Final point: I didn't say it had to be an expansion. I'm saying if by delaying it a month you could bundle it with the initial game, it should be done. I'm not against DLC, I'm against charging extra for first day DLC.


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LordHuffnPuff
Title: Mahna Mahna
Joined: Jan 12 2009
Location: Fairyland
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 01:28 am Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="justdrop"]First point: That's fine. CoD is a good game too in some people's eyes.

justdrop wrote:
Second point: They're not the first, they're not alone. They are the first to have such an in-depth and on-going story compromised because of it, thus making it a big deal. It is unique in that aspect.


The thrust behind your response to first point is basically reusable here, despite your willful ignorance that the fellow simply does not contribute much outside of his own DLC: the value of the character is dependent upon the consumer, not some platonic ideal of "good".

justdrop wrote:
Third point: It's not a fallacy, as evidenced by your own second point. Companies have done it and gotten away with it, simply because no one said enough is enough.


I see you've been reduced to nonsensical utterances beneath the crushing grip of my logic. The point stands as this attempt to turn my argument is incomprehensible within the context of the discussion.

justdrop wrote:
Final point


You basically just repeated the slippery slope problem.

Anyway I was advised that I should stop as you're not going to actually stop despite the careful, calm laying out of logical arguments in favor of perpetuating a debate that you lost several posts ago, so I'm through here.


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justdrop
Title: Supreme Overlord
Joined: Jan 11 2012
Location: Philadelphia
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 01:35 am Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, crushed Rolling Eyes

Enjoy paying inflated prices with the rest of them in the future.


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Andrew Man
Title: Is a Funklord
Joined: Jan 30 2007
Location: Annandale, VA
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 01:58 am Reply with quote Back to top

Pandajuice wrote:
Care to share the deal Andrew? Smile

On topic, I don't really care if they want to offer DLC on release of the game as long as it actually is "extra" and the release version of the game is complete without the DLC.


Yea, dude.

http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_018V003845141000P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2

It's PS3 only though. It's marked down to 75 bucks, and you get 20 bucks you can spend as online game store credit. So you are essentially getting the whole package for $55.


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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 04:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

LordHuffnPuff wrote:
Alowishus wrote:
^ It's not surprise. It is disgust. If it's available as DLC day 1 they should just pack it with the game. End of.


This comment betrays a lack of knowledge about how the game production process actually works. Here's a helpful image that should clear it up.

This comment portrays a lack of knowledge of the correct usage of words. Razz

You also failed to see my point. I don't give two fucks if it's "optional content" it should have been released with the game.
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LeshLush
Joined: Oct 19 2009
Location: Nashville, TN
PostPosted: Feb 25 2012 04:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I thought that pornography wasn't allowed on these boards? Because I'm pretty sure most of the last several posts have just been pictures of dudes masturbating.
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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
PostPosted: Feb 27 2012 12:35 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Oh here we go:
SPOILER
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aeonic
Title: 2012 Champ of your Mom
Joined: Nov 19 2009
Location: Cape Coral, FL
PostPosted: Mar 01 2012 04:19 pm Reply with quote Back to top

So, EA apparently wants me to not see my wife for a while. She beat ME1 and ME2, both, twice, didn't lose a character in the suicide run (including Kasumi and Sayeed). I will be standing in line for this at midnight, not so I can play it, but so I can watch her do so. And if the fucking Prothean's costs ten bucks more, I'll pay it. It's called guilt sex, guys can use it too, and it's worth it.


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Alowishus
Joined: Aug 04 2009
PostPosted: Mar 01 2012 05:24 pm Reply with quote Back to top

NSFW

I don't get why they include these? Is this not a 3rd person shooter game?

Also:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/marketforceslive/2012/mar/01/game-falls-further-mass-effect-dispute

Quote:
Shares in Game Group have lost another 5% in the wake of Wednesday's news it would not be stocking the forthcoming Mass Effect 3 after a dispute with publisher Electronic Arts.
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aeonic
Title: 2012 Champ of your Mom
Joined: Nov 19 2009
Location: Cape Coral, FL
PostPosted: Mar 01 2012 06:47 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Alowishus wrote:
NSFW

I don't get why they include these? Is this not a 3rd person shooter game?

Also:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/marketforceslive/2012/mar/01/game-falls-further-mass-effect-dispute

Quote:
Shares in Game Group have lost another 5% in the wake of Wednesday's news it would not be stocking the forthcoming Mass Effect 3 after a dispute with publisher Electronic Arts.


It's more like an RPG with heavy FPS elements, a la Fallout 3/New Vegas and Skyrim. Considering it's got romance options for straight men and lesbians/bisexual women in the first two, it's only fair that they give gay options, I guess. To paraphrase what my wife said during the second game, "If I'd have known Kaidan was going to be this much of a little pussy bitch, I'd have let him explode, but I needed the achievement and gamerscore points." She then went back and did just that after she beat the second one, then re-loaded the info from that into her second play-through on ME2.


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