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FNJ
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Joined: Jun 07 2006
Posts: 12294
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SoldierHawk wrote: |
FNJ wrote: |
dddddddd wrote: |
didn't batman use to carry a gun and shoot people with it |
surely that's not depraved. |
Cops and soldiers carry guns and shoot people with them... |
now we're just rationalizing. cops and soldiers have a procedure to follow. batman was literally like "oh a bad guy! BANG!"
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aeonic
Title: Sporadic Poster
Joined: Nov 19 2009
Location: Kissimmee, FL
Posts: 2747
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Honestly, though, you can hardly call that Batman. You're taking the earliest run of the character, when things like that were considered perfectly fine for most superheroes to do. Captain America used to pack a rod, too. By and large, the Batman persona is actually defined by him NOT using guns (thus, the reason there was so much gravitas when he shot Darkseid with the God-Killer bullet in Infinite Crisis). Those early Batman stories, as far as I'm concerned, don't really fall into canon, especially when you take into consideration that they were Golden Age, where one story had zero continuity with the next. That's my opinion, but I like my opinion.
And the Batman with the rag/sheet over his face was when he slipped into his Zurr-En-Ahrr persona. Not the best part of Batman canon if you ask me.
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Who likes role-playing games? Me. Way too goddamn much. |
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SoldierHawk
Moderator
Title: Warrior-Poet
Joined: Jan 15 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6085
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FNJ wrote: |
SoldierHawk wrote: |
FNJ wrote: |
dddddddd wrote: |
didn't batman use to carry a gun and shoot people with it |
surely that's not depraved. |
Cops and soldiers carry guns and shoot people with them... |
now we're just rationalizing. cops and soldiers have a procedure to follow. batman was literally like "oh a bad guy! BANG!" |
And Superman goes, "oh, a bad guy!" *FRIES WITH LASER VISION* In fact, MOST superheroes do this. They're almost all vigilantism by definition. Why pick on poor Bats?
(I continue the debate because its fun and interesting, but JRA your point is very well taken and I pretty much arrived at the same conclusion.)
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William Shakespeare wrote: |
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none. |
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FNJ
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Joined: Jun 07 2006
Posts: 12294
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superman would NEVER fry a random mugger or bank robber with heat vision. not even in his early days. it's a core value of his character. batman literally went around with a luger shooting criminals.
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FNJ
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Joined: Jun 07 2006
Posts: 12294
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there is a difference between stopping a petty crime and flat out murdering someone for stealing a purse.
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Blackout
Title: Captain Oblivious
Joined: Sep 01 2007
Location: That Rainy State
Posts: 10376
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I would wholeheartedly enjoy a Batman series where he went around shooting people in the face and being a dick. Point me in the right direction.
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AtmanRyu
Title: The Wandering Dragon
Joined: Jun 25 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 986
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FNJ wrote: |
superman would NEVER fry a random mugger or bank robber with heat vision. not even in his early days. |
No, instead he'd beat the ever living crap out of them and humiliate them as humanly possible.
The term "Superdickery" didn't appear just because, you know.
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FNJ
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Joined: Jun 07 2006
Posts: 12294
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do you see the circle that we've gone in?
the original statement was "batman is depraved." which then began the discussion of "how is batman depraved?"
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Black Zarak
Title: Big Coffin Hunter
Joined: Feb 01 2006
Location: Phyrexia
Posts: 4098
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FNJ wrote: |
there is a difference between stopping a petty crime and flat out murdering someone for stealing a purse. |
Tell that to Paul Kersey!
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FNJ
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Dr. Jeebus
Moderator
Title: SLF Harbinger of Death
Joined: Sep 03 2005
Location: Wakefield, MA
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FNJ, I'm gonna say aeonic has this pretty much nailed. Batman carried a gun for a very brief period in the 40's. Not only is NONE of that canon at this point, but in the 40's that behavior towards criminal would have been considered more heroic than depraved. It was a word in which Nazis were a very real threat, and thus the concepts of good and evil were completely black and white. Criminals were very much evil, and killing them was very much good. The notion seems ridiculous these days thanks to the pussification of America by a bunch of PC thugs, but you can't take non-canonical writings out of context and claim them as proof of Batman's depravity.
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SoldierHawk
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Title: Warrior-Poet
Joined: Jan 15 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6085
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Pussification of America aside lol, what Jeebus said.
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William Shakespeare wrote: |
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none. |
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FNJ
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Joined: Jun 07 2006
Posts: 12294
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Dr. Jeebus wrote: |
FNJ, I'm gonna say aeonic has this pretty much nailed. Batman carried a gun for a very brief period in the 40's. Not only is NONE of that canon at this point, but in the 40's that behavior towards criminal would have been considered more heroic than depraved. It was a word in which Nazis were a very real threat, and thus the concepts of good and evil were completely black and white. Criminals were very much evil, and killing them was very much good. The notion seems ridiculous these days thanks to the pussification of America by a bunch of PC thugs, but you can't take non-canonical writings out of context and claim them as proof of Batman's depravity. |
the gun thing was just one example. the entire idea of a man devoting his entire life to beating the shit out of people while wearing spandex every night of his life is what's depraved. a man who's become his alter ego, using the bruce wayne moniker as a secret identity instead of the other way around is depraved. a man only living half of a normal human existence to fun his crime fighting is depraved. a man traveling the entire world to learn everything he can to be the best spandex wearing crimefighter ever is depraved.
a normal, rational human would get therapy, get over their parent's death, and live a normal life. batman's done it so that his normal life is the crime fighting.
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SoldierHawk
Moderator
Title: Warrior-Poet
Joined: Jan 15 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
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Okay, FNJ, we need to get something straight here:
de·prav·i·ty (d-prv-t)
n. pl. de·prav·i·ties
1. Moral corruption or degradation.
2. A depraved act or condition.
depravity [dɪˈprævɪtɪ]
the state or an instance of moral corruption
1.depravity - moral perversion; impairment of virtue and moral principles; "the luxury and corruption among the upper classes"; "moral degeneracy followed intellectual degeneration"; "its brothels, its opium parlors, its depravity"; "Rome had fallen into moral putrefaction"
depravation, degeneracy, putrefaction, corruption
2. depraved - morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted
Now, I'm actually not trying to be snarky or sarcastic here (at least not very much.) I honestly don't think that you can successfully argue that what Batman is doing is immoral or corrupt. Clearly he (and all superheroes) are at least trying to be the exact opposite of that; that is why we call the HEROES. Now, does Batman ever engage in occasional morally questionable acts, of course, so do all human beings, even the best of us, but that hardly makes him depraved.
My major point aside from the morality of his vigilantism, is that you simply CANNOT call him depraved just because he dresses up like a bat and fights crime; his drive to fight evil makes him the exact opposite of depraved in fact. Bruce Wayne is certainly a little bit insane (you'd have to be to do that), but he is in NO WAY morally evil or corrupt, which is what the definition of the world you're trying to label him with is.
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William Shakespeare wrote: |
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none. |
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Char Aznable
Title: Char Classicâ„¢
Joined: Jul 24 2006
Location: Robot Boombox HQ
Posts: 7542
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Depraved? No. Batshit insane? Probably.
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SoldierHawk
Moderator
Title: Warrior-Poet
Joined: Jan 15 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
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You know, speaking of Bats' many incarnations, how the hell did he end up being the goofball we saw Adam West play? Not that I have anything against that series mind you, its a lot of fun, but in terms of actual evolution....?
I mean, I assume he wasn't always the uberdark, brooding orphan he's famous for being now, but it still seems like one hell of a leap from WHEREVER he started to giant umbrellas, exploding octopi, and Bat-Brand shark repellent.
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William Shakespeare wrote: |
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none. |
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username
Title: owner of a lonely heart
Joined: Jul 06 2007
Location: phoenix, az usa
Posts: 16123
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SoldierHawk wrote: |
You know, speaking of Bats' many incarnations, how the hell did he end up being the goofball we saw Adam West play? Not that I have anything against that series mind you, its a lot of fun, but in terms of actual evolution....?
I mean, I assume he wasn't always the uberdark, brooding orphan he's famous for being now, but it still seems like one hell of a leap from WHEREVER he started to giant umbrellas, exploding octopi, and Bat-Brand shark repellent. |
thats during the... silver age i believe. everyone was silly & campy. the comics especially.
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Klimbatize wrote: |
I'll eat a turkey sandwich while blowing my load |
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AtmanRyu
Title: The Wandering Dragon
Joined: Jun 25 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 986
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username wrote: |
SoldierHawk wrote: |
You know, speaking of Bats' many incarnations, how the hell did he end up being the goofball we saw Adam West play? Not that I have anything against that series mind you, its a lot of fun, but in terms of actual evolution....?
I mean, I assume he wasn't always the uberdark, brooding orphan he's famous for being now, but it still seems like one hell of a leap from WHEREVER he started to giant umbrellas, exploding octopi, and Bat-Brand shark repellent. |
thats during the... silver age i believe. everyone was silly & campy. the comics especially. |
There were several reasons for this to happen.
First of all, it was the book Seduction of the Innocent by Fredic Wertham, which in turn led to the creation of the Comics Code Authority , which heavily regulated comics during the late 1950's and beyond into removing subjects such as gore, drugs, horror, among others. This either destroyed comic companies altogether (EC Comics is the most well known example) or led others to adapt and find ways to go around it (Marvel and DC).
Also, during the Silver Age, there was a practice in which the artwork came first and the plot came second. (practice that some writers and artists avoided such as Stan Lee). Thereby, we'd have covers that look appealing (back then), which forced writers to actually make said cover work as a story altogether, usually leading to acid induced plotlines.
And of course, there was the fact that the show Batman with Adam West (which ironically was intended to be at first as a fun yet serious adventures series, but instead it was turn into the campy sillyness that is known today) got so popular that its campiness got seeped into the comics.
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Kojjiro!
Joined: Feb 16 2008
Posts: 832
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the gun thing was just one example. the entire idea of a man devoting his entire life to beating the shit out of people while wearing spandex every night of his life is what's depraved. a man who's become his alter ego, using the bruce wayne moniker as a secret identity instead of the other way around is depraved. a man only living half of a normal human existence to fun his crime fighting is depraved. a man traveling the entire world to learn everything he can to be the best spandex wearing crimefighter ever is depraved.
a normal, rational human would get therapy, get over their parent's death, and live a normal life. batman's done it so that his normal life is the crime fighting. |
So, there's nothing depraved about a foreigner changing who he is completely, dressing up in spandex and devoting his life to putting another race on a 'better path' while trying to become that thing himself? (Superman)
Perhaps nothing about a teenager using his powers to stop crimes with reckless abandon on whoever he calls a villain, despite the fact that a whole city hates him and he's the reason there are supervillains? (Spider-Man)
Nothing depraved about a billionare being arrested and released, subsenquently 'reforming' by dressing up as robin hood and using a bow and arrow to stop crimes? (Green-Arrow)
Or perhaps it's depraved that you're reading so far into things created solely for entertainment purposed?
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FNJ
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Joined: Jun 07 2006
Posts: 12294
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looks like kojjiro served us all.
well played, sir.
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aeonic
Title: Sporadic Poster
Joined: Nov 19 2009
Location: Kissimmee, FL
Posts: 2747
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Oooh, yeah, a specious argument based on very little actual knowledge of the characters involved really p'wned us. I should totally revise my thoughts on the subject because Kojjiro doesn't know dick. Let's take his 'examples' one at a time, shall we?
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So, there's nothing depraved about a foreigner changing who he is completely, dressing up in spandex and devoting his life to putting another race on a 'better path' while trying to become that thing himself? (Superman) |
First off, Superman's less a foreigner than the governor of California, okay? Admittedly, he's Kryptonian, but he was raised in a corn-fed existence from infancy by Thomas and Martha Kent. The guy is a fucking Eagle Scout, for chrissakes. He identifies more with that upbringing than his actual Superman persona, and it's not like he's actively trying to get rid of his powers and just live a normal life as a human being. He's an alien raised as a human who possesses the powers of a god and who's trying to make the world a slightly safer place to live in. Wow, the depravity.
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Perhaps nothing about a teenager using his powers to stop crimes with reckless abandon on whoever he calls a villain, despite the fact that a whole city hates him and he's the reason there are supervillains? (Spider-Man) |
Pick up a fucking comic once in a while, would you? Reckless abandon? He might be a little thick on the banter when he's fighting a villain, but really, did the various writers who've handled his hydra-like titles not drill the 'Uncle Ben great power greater responsibility' thing into your brainmeats by now? Likewise, saying the city hates him is a gross misrepresentation: he's demonized by a tight-assed media mogul in the press and true, some feebs are stupid enough to believe it, but there's a lot of others who aren't fooled by the media hooplah and who like him damn fine, including his alter-ego's arch-nemesis Flash Thompson. And as for him being the reason that there's supervillains... maybe the dumbest thing you've said in your piss-poor argument. Fantastic Four and Hulk both appeared in the Marvel Universe before Spider Man did, and that's not even including the Timely Publications/Atlas Comics iterations of the company. Do your fucking research.
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Nothing depraved about a billionare being arrested and released, subsenquently 'reforming' by dressing up as robin hood and using a bow and arrow to stop crimes? (Green-Arrow) |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Arrow:_Year_One
Arrested? Cite where. As for his 'reformation', it basically happened when he realized what a douchebag he was and decided to do something better for people less fortunate than him. Oh, the horrible depravity!
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Or perhaps it's depraved that you're reading so far into things created solely for entertainment purposed? |
What's depraved is your argument, or perhaps more like the lack thereof. Are comics supposed to be a form of entertainment? Yes, that they are. But are they more than that? Absolutely. For a lot of people, myself included, comics are more than just a collector's hobby and a fun read. They inspire people, even if it's just to be a little bit nicer to their fellow human beings. The mood in the world right now is pretty fucking bleak, and as an American who sees our troops dying in some third-world hellhole with no apparent reason, elected governmental officials who clearly don't give a shit about anyone, even their constituents, and who barely makes enough money to keep his head above water, I look to those comics as a source of inspiration and comfort. I need a fucking hero, man. They give me hope for a better tomorrow.
So, in summation, do your fucking research, look up depravity in a dictionary again, and realize that what might not be important to you might be very important to someone else and that, if they care enough, they'll call you on your jackassery. Jackass.
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Who likes role-playing games? Me. Way too goddamn much. |
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username
Title: owner of a lonely heart
Joined: Jul 06 2007
Location: phoenix, az usa
Posts: 16123
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i think you pissed off aeonic
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Klimbatize wrote: |
I'll eat a turkey sandwich while blowing my load |
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AtmanRyu
Title: The Wandering Dragon
Joined: Jun 25 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 986
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I don't blame aeonic really.
While they're in fact a form of entertainment, this doesn't make them any less valid for analysis than prose literature, live action films and even animation.
Ironically, the ones who usually read too much into their actual meaning are the ones who usually don't know jack about comics in the first place. You know, the same way Jack Thompson was with videogames.
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FNJ
2010 SLF Tag Champ
Joined: Jun 07 2006
Posts: 12294
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so, how about that o kills contra speed run, ey?
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Kojjiro!
Joined: Feb 16 2008
Posts: 832
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aeonic completely missed the point of what i was getting at, but oh well it happens all the time.
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