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Joined: Aug 28 2011 Posts: 537

Edited title from Dumb it Down Thread

Dumbing Down = dropping a game's complexity, a removal of skill sets players must perform to overcome obstacles. (Examples are having hints displayed when solving puzzles or removing spikes in a Megaman game).
Definition added: 10-14-13

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The End of One-upmanship: Accessibility

In the spirit of negativity it is time to talk about how companies have soldout their principles of making better games in order to appeal to the masses with "accessibility". They've traded games that can speak for themselves for numbers that can speak for themselves (marketability). No more quality>quantity. see: Reggie "game" phenomena satisfy fans. The companies are dumbing the games down and it needs to stop.

If you see any more quotes on accessibility or dumbing down games in interviews please post them here. Anyhow, here are some quotes that perfectly describe this phenomenon I am writing to you all about. One day it can go into an article.

On Sin & Punishment: Star Successor:

Quote:

Yamagami
Then after I'd waited awhile, the prototype was done. When I played it, I was amazed.
Iwata
You wondered how they could do anything like that on Nintendo 64?
Yamagami
You guessed it. I was truly amazed. And everyone at Treasure is a perfectionist, so the difficulty level was staggering.
Iwata
I see.
Yamagami
When I said, "It's too difficult. I can't do it," they responded, "Then you're not good enough to be in charge of this project."
Everyone
(laughs)
Yamagami
When I said, "But normal people can't do this!" they said, "Everyone in our company can do it. Anyone who can't do this can't be on our team."
Iwata
(laughs)
Yamagami
That discussion dragged on for almost one year...
Maegawa
Yeah, it went on for a while. (laughs)
Yamagami
Saying "Make it easier" is easy, but if you do, it loses that distinct Treasure style.
Maegawa
We wouldn't be worth much if we crumbled just because we were ordered to do something. If you do something just because you're told to, even though you don't agree, the game will fall apart. But Yamagami-san was persistent in continually hammering away at our staff.
Yamagami
If I had really laid on them, we probably could have brought the game out before 2000, but I told them I wouldn't order them to make it easier. I kept saying, "I won't order you to do it until you understand. I'll keep talking to you until you understand." If I hadn't, there would have been no point in working with them.

Eventually, toward the end, the overall difficulty level did fall, but without losing that distinct Treasure flavor.

On Megaman:

Quote:

Tim Turi wrote:

If you were turned off by the unforgiving nature of Mega Man 9 or 10, Mega Man Zero has you covered with easy mode. Unlike Mega Man 10ï¿½s newbie-friendly mode, which idiot-proofs spike pits and reduces enemy numbers, this easy mode decks Zero out in all his end-game gear. Maxed-out sub-tanks, life bar, weapons, and abilities are granted to those who prefer to feel like a badass robot right away, rather than earning it throughout the game. This mode robs much of the gameï¿½s reward factor, but it makes playing all four games back to back a much smoother process.

On Bayonetta:

Quote:

As some fans may already know, Bayonetta features a "Very Easy Automatic" mode that essentially plays the game for you. Director Hideki Kamiya decided to show that mode off on the official site, posting a video of what he jokingly called "Mommy Mode."

"Yep. This is the power of Automatic. Automatic can be used on Easy and Very Easy difficulties, and leaves the most complex controls up to the CPU," Kamiya wrote.

"At the controls in this video is character designer Mari Shimazaki. All she is really doing in this video is pressing a single button, the Punch button. She may occasionally be pressing Kick, but only for the Torture Attack events."

According to Kamiya, the Very Easy Automatic Mode is capable of putting the main character in perfect position to attack while triggering various combos. Dodging is a matter of hitting the punch button.

On Vanquish:

Quote:

for those of you who are less experienced in the genre, try Casual Auto, with its liberal auto-aim function, and you should be able to fight your way through the battlefield with little worry.

On Mario:

Quote:

Miyamoto: That's why the Super Guide won't only show you the correct strategy, it will also allow you to provisionally clear the course. It will present you with the option to skip the course and move on to the next one.

Iwata: So in other words, by using the Super Guide, you could get right through to the end.

Miyamoto: Well, since you've purchased it, it's surely better to be able to see the ending.

Iwata: But isn't there a risk that by allowing that, the essence of playing an action game will somehow be lost? I said it a little earlier, but it's precisely by pushing yourself a little harder, and by failing again and again, that the feeling of achievement you get when you succeed grows.

Miyamoto: We've included a number of elements in the game with that in mind. Now, I'm sure you've had times when there's been one particular place on a level that you just can't get past, no matter how hard you try.

Iwata: Those are the places that will really have you on the verge of tears!

Miyamoto: There are times when even if you watch the Super Guide and understand how you should to do it, you still can't manage it yourself. At times like that, you can use the Super Guide to get past the tough part then play yourself.

Iwata: So partway through the Super Guide, you can take over just like that?

Miyamoto: Once it's gone past the tricky part, you can press the Pause Button and change the player back to yourself. The player will be Luigi, but his jumping ability is the same as Mario's.

Iwata: Novices will be happy about this feature.

http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/nsmb/0/4

Let's note that this wasn't the first cutscene that showed the player what to do in a Nintendo game. Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat had small cutscenes that showed DK doing certain things on stages to get a higher score after completion of stage. After you watched it you could use that knowledge to attempt it yourself (let's note it never showed off the entire level's well designed high score system just a snippet). It never did the work for you or let you skip stages.

Why Super Mario Galaxy is brain-dead easy:

Quote:

Nintendo of Americaï¿½s George Harrison tells CNN that GameCubeï¿½s software sales were lower than expected because games like ï¿½Super Mario Sunshineï¿½ are too difficult for todayï¿½s gamers. Due to Cubeï¿½s software sales, Nintendo of Japan and Miyamoto have decided to make games less challenging to sell software to larger audiences.
ï¿½Nintendoï¿½s chief gaming architect Shigeru Miyamoto agreed with criticism that the Mario game was too hard. And, in a decision that might anger the hardcore crowd, the word has since come from up high to make games less challenging.ï¿½ says CNN.

source: http://money.cnn.com/2003/04/16/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/

On Smash Brothers:

Quote:

Melee is the sharpest game in the series. It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play. I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years, but why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult.
...
If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before.
â€•Masahiro Sakurai

On Kirby:

Quote:

Winning in Epic Yarn is a bit of a different concept than what you'll find in a typical platformer. You can't actually kick the bucket; even bottomless pits just result in you getting fished out, just with considerably lighter pockets as you'll have bled high-value beads all the way up.

On Capcom vs SNK 2:EO

Quote:

GC-ism

GC stands for GameCube, and is made specifically for the GameCube controller. This control type is for beginners. Auto Guard is always on, meaning your character blocks automatically, in the air or on the ground. You can move with either the control stick or the control pad. The R button controls all three punches. The intensity with which you push the button determines the strength of the punch. The L button controls the three kicks and the same holds true for intensity. The yellow C-stick controls the special attacks. The direction and angle that you push the stick determines which super move is done and the strength of the move. The Z button taunts.

On Street Fighter

Went from this:

Quote:

"When Third Strike came out R&D didn't really consider sales back then," Ono explains. "We weren't as marketing-orientated as we are today. We just wanted to make the best game and wanted to please our most hardcore fans. That's what drove us. Obviously, in terms of sales it didn't pay, so the company couldn't invest in a sequel with a decent rationale. Not only that, but we were adamant we had made the epitome of the fighting game with Third Strike. So from the company's point of view, if the team is stating that it cannot do any better combined with a lack of sales, it's a complete story and it's time to move on."

to the accessible casual easy movelist in MvC3 and SF4.

quotes on those capcom games pending

On Steel Battalion: Heavy Armor
tba

On Team Fortress 2
tba

On Ninja Gaiden

Quote:

Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 Plus has a mode for newbie ninjas. Select the "Hero" difficulty level and Ryu will auto guard when heï¿½s in a pinch.

On Punch-Out ?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch-Out!!_(Wii)
may be dumbed down.

On Etrian Odyssey IV

Quote:

While Etrian Odyssey series is known for being hardcore, the game has a casual mode for newcomers. Casual mode takes you back to town if you die instead of ending the game and gives you an item that lets you warp to town at anytime.

Wizard Joined: Jun 12 2009 Posts: 4209

Holy hell, you wrote an entire article about this shit?

How about you go along with the name of the post and "dumb it down" a little? I don't want to sit and read all of that at the end of a long day at work.

Posted: Jun 22 2012 11:44 pm

It wasn't exactly heavy reading.

Posted: Jun 23 2012 12:07 am

And to be fair, it's not like he truly wrote most of it. He copied and pasted things into an entire article about this shit.

Vert, what about people who simply cannot get through the learning curve of games such as Street Fighter? Making them accessible means people such as myself have a chance to play them. From my perspective, that's a benefit. For it to be considered a problem implies that I shouldn't be given the chance to enjoy the game...
That sounds a wee bit elitist. Confused

Joined: Feb 16 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 329

How exactly was SF4's movelist dumbed down? It's the same Street Fighter 6-button config, with most of the button inputs being the same for the returning characters. Also, in most of those examples you listed, the "dumbing down" is completely optional. God forbid a new generation has a slightly easier time getting into games that aren't Call of Duty, and help support genres besides FPS. Gamers have also grown older and have less time on their hands, having a game be more accepting of that, isn't a bad thing.

Easy to learn, hard to master.

Banned Joined: Sep 13 2008 Posts: 3129

So what if Nintendo, Capcom, and a few other companies have decided to make games easier. Kids have a higher amount of stimulation in life these days and are more easily entertained with FPS games than with classic games like Mario, Mega Man, and Zelda.

Those companies have to find a way to not only compete with games like Halo, Call of Duty, and Grand Theft Auto, but still have to find ways to draw new fans in, and if their market research has found this to be the best route to draw in younger gamers and try to gain newer lifelong fans then you can bet they'll take that route.

They're not going to stop doing it, and if you don't like it then oh well, don't use the easy-way-out methods they supply for you. In Skyward Sword they told you at the beginning the stone would be there to help you. They never actually forced you to use it.

They're out to make money for their work and try to create a project that'll be enjoyed by the majority of the gaming population. You can't please everyone, so they'll please who gives them the most money.

It's not the atrocity you're trying to make it out to be, and a few people bitching on the internet won't solve it. Just remember the good times you had with their older games and either don't play their new games, or shut up and play them and ignore the guide methods

Posted: Jun 23 2012 02:07 am

I'm not too worried. As long as this is an issue, there will always be those deviant developers who go out of their way to create impossible challenges that boot us in our complacent rears and make us hate video games for the right reasons again.

Joined: Oct 19 2009 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1479

Joined: Jul 06 2008 Posts: 142

i know i am going to sound like a dumbass but who is chomsky

Joined: Oct 19 2009 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1479

Noam Chomsky is a linguist, political theorist, social critic, and all-around leftist. I'm sure Syd hates him.

Joined: Dec 06 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 11244

As a gamer who struggles with platformers, I agree that controls shouldn't get in the way of gaming. However, the solution isn't to offer a cheat mode, or reduce difficulty, it is to make sure that controls are intuitive, consistent, and well defined. Game play should encourage faster thinking with better, smoother player reactions. Game makers should attempt to try to devalue button mashing as much as possible.

I look at Super Metroid as a perfect example of game play balance. A certain amount of forgiveness is afforded to the player through the lack of pits and a potentially large health pool, but advancement is met with progression in skill, item collection, and knowledge of the game world.

Although they are not platformers, I believe that the Zelda series is also a terrific example of quality game play.

Games like Contra and Castlevania, and Ninja Gaiden are exceptionally fun, however they are so unforgiving that the vast majority of gamers cannot succeed through even the first half of the games.

Balance is the key, but this cheating nonsense is ridiculous.

Posted: Jun 29 2012 02:13 pm

May as well bring this up:

Posted: Jun 29 2012 02:27 pm

Quote:

I look at Super Metroid as a perfect example of game play balance. A certain amount of forgiveness is afforded to the player through the lack of pits and a potentially large health pool, but advancement is met with progression in skill, item collection, and knowledge of the game world.

You know, it's interesting you say that, because I was stuck for years on Super Metroid when I was a kid. We had a game/movie rental shop and our titles never had the manuals with them. So without the game manual, I had no way to know that holding down one of the buttons (and I can't remember which without looking at the controller) caused Samus to sprint. There's a section in Brinstar where you have to do this to avoid spikes, and it's the only way to progress in the game. Took me forever to figure that shit out...

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Fighter_McWarrior wrote:

Quote:

I look at Super Metroid as a perfect example of game play balance. A certain amount of forgiveness is afforded to the player through the lack of pits and a potentially large health pool, but advancement is met with progression in skill, item collection, and knowledge of the game world.

You know, it's interesting you say that, because I was stuck for years on Super Metroid when I was a kid. We had a game/movie rental shop and our titles never had the manuals with them. So without the game manual, I had no way to know that holding down one of the buttons (and I can't remember which without looking at the controller) caused Samus to sprint. There's a section in Brinstar where you have to do this to avoid spikes, and it's the only way to progress in the game. Took me forever to figure that shit out...

Yeah, my dad bought me my copy from a garage sale sans manual, and it was a bitch for a 9 year-old.

Joined: Aug 04 2009 Posts: 2515

Shardea wrote:

And to be fair, it's not like he truly wrote most of it. He copied and pasted things into an entire article about this shit.

Vert, what about people who simply cannot get through the learning curve of games such as Street Fighter? Making them accessible means people such as myself have a chance to play them. From my perspective, that's a benefit. For it to be considered a problem implies that I shouldn't be given the chance to enjoy the game...
That sounds a wee bit elitist. Confused

I get what you are saying and i can sympathize. I suck extremely badly at fighting games. SF2 Turbo was one of the first video games i ever played and i was terrible at it. While over the years i have gotten better at it i am still pretty shit.

However the problem isn't that you shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the game. I will state i wasn't aware that SF4 had that option but i know MVC3 has it that all special moves can be assigned to one button rather than a combo.

I agree with vert in that respect. It's not fair in an online match for you to use the special combos by say just pressing single buttons versus the person who put time and effort into mastering the controls of the character for you just to come in and essentially "cheese" and steam roll over that person.

It's a conflicting sort of idea, yes i agree that it allows easier access but the whole thing with those games is that you are meant to invest time and effort into it to get good at it.

I don't know how many people play Starcraft. You lose so much at this game. Everyone here will know it is a very famous and popular e-sport and professionalism in it is not taken lightly. To get good at Starcraft these people have to train about 10 hours every day to get to that level, prob at the least.

Imagine then Blizzard went okay now we will stick in a feature which will build all the units in the game for you with one click and then you can play against the professionals - i know this is an extreme example but the point within it is clear. It is not fair and it defies the whole point of the game.

So yeah it's a pretty conflicting point. Obviously they want more sales so they would introduce such a feature but it takes away the whole point of the game in that you don't have to learn how to play the game and you just fucking roll your face over the controls to win.

It's like even with SF2 those people who would learn the moves against those who would button mash to win.

MellowMeek wrote:

How exactly was SF4's movelist dumbed down? It's the same Street Fighter 6-button config, with most of the button inputs being the same for the returning characters. Also, in most of those examples you listed, the "dumbing down" is completely optional. God forbid a new generation has a slightly easier time getting into games that aren't Call of Duty, and help support genres besides FPS. Gamers have also grown older and have less time on their hands, having a game be more accepting of that, isn't a bad thing.

Easy to learn, hard to master.

Same sort of thing as above. It is completely optional but it takes the whole effort out of playing the game and it won't be fair if a person who is learning and trying hard to play with the actual button commands gets beaten by someone who is just literally pressing the "win button".

LeshLush wrote:

Noam Chomsky is a linguist, political theorist, social critic, and all-around leftist. I'm sure Syd hates him.

Firstly i LOLD hard at this.

Secondly what i took from that is Chomsky is a bit upset. He seems to exaggerate that science tries to make up a ridiculous and extremely convoluted or complex solution for problems in the universe when in fact there is evidence behind each of the theories constructed. Marxist and Feminist theories aren't science at all. There was no particular scientific evidence used in their creation nor is there any usage of scientific method used to backup or support their claims. Politics nor history or anthropology are science. It's just the scenario of critical analysis "this is what i think or this is what should happen". In that the title of video is wrong to a respect - at least that's what i think. He used those words as an example of big words used in the humanities versus big words used in science - which make them sound grand or luxurious - i suppose in that respect it is a criticism though i still think he's wrong about using big words and such. The nature of the universe is that it's complex there is no easy way to explain it - unless he means that they continually use complex wording to put their points or theories forward in which case i agree but still they are complex in nature. Meh lol.

Joined: Oct 19 2009 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1479

Alowishus,

Regarding Chomsky, it's a littlbe bit tough to tell from this video, especially ripped out of context, but Chomsky is squarely for science. Outside of politics, he's a respected linguist whose theories are used both in traditional linguistics and in theoretical computer science. He's describing satirically describing other academics' views towards the sciences and what he views as the lack of intellectual integrity amongst some of his colleagues.

I was using it to make fun of Vert1, and all of his "Cover is bad. Cover shooters are bad because of cover. Space Invaders had cover. Therefore Galaga is pure and right and good and Space Invaders is the decline of American decency as led by Jimmy Kimmel" theories.

Posted: Jun 29 2012 06:53 pm

LeshLush wrote:

I was using it to make fun of Vert1, and all of his "Cover is bad. Cover shooters are bad because of cover. Space Invaders had cover. Therefore Galaga is pure and right and good and Space Invaders is the decline of American decency as led by Jimmy Kimmel" theories.

Joined: Aug 28 2011 Posts: 537

Who are these people targeted by M rated games with these dumbed down difficulties in Vanquish and Bayonetta? It can't be kids since there is the whole age restriction. The argument is that these easy modes are for newcomers to the games. This is really bizarre as you figure someone 17+ would have a capabilities to play these games and wouldn't be befuddled by having to push more than 2 buttons on a controller (this ain't a Wii motion game for teh kiddies and grandma).

The original title of the thread was "Selling Out to Losers". "Winners don't quit and quitters don't win". Losers play Bayonetta using the one handed mode. Losers want everything given to them. Even if these modes are optional they are still harmful and offensive. They take up the developer time focusing on stupid anti-game bullshit.

Take Capcom vs SNK 2: EO on Gamecube. Who are these people who buy a fighting game that cannot execute a special move and have to have it assigned a flick of the C-stick?? Little kids and women? I don't know anyone who had that mode make the sale for them. Do you really think people who have to have shit dumbed down so much who can't invest minimal effort to do two quarter circle forward + B are going to get turned on and invest further in 2D fighters? Not likely.

Posted: Jul 20 2012 04:21 pm

By the same token, I wonder if E-rated games should be allowed to be so hard that only adults have any hope on clearing them on the first week.

Joined: Aug 28 2011 Posts: 537

I don't see why not. I doubt kids could clear Ninja Gaiden and Super Mario Bros. on their first week.

There is always the battle of not alienating your audience*. In Super Mario Bros. 2 Miyamoto wanted to make the game harder as to challenge the people who played the shit out of the first game. Obviously an expert wouldn't want to play a watered down version. Now you have people bitching about Super Mario Sunshine's difficulty. You have "professional" game reviewers bitching about F-Zero GX's difficulty. The high difficulty should be praised and people loathing it shamed.

* Will post Gitaroo-Man making of interview on this later.

Joined: Apr 09 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3112

Wow, I used to think that you were one of the typical angry nerd types that this forum occasionally gets. They usually show up, post a few samey, crappy rants on the board, and eventually tone it down or leave. You really are some kind of shut-in with a limited perspective.

Joined: Aug 28 2011 Posts: 537

I'm not an angry nerd or a shut-in. I am Vert1.

Posted: Jul 21 2012 12:19 am

This thread sure dumbed me down.

Joined: Jun 29 2010 Posts: 1818

Cameron wrote:

This thread sure dumbed me down.

Wizard Joined: Jun 12 2009 Posts: 4209

Cameron wrote:

This thread sure dumbed me down.